$5 NLHE Full Ring: Would you go all-in or not with set in this situation?

Mcclares · Mar 18, 2020

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 35/15/1

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 29.6 BB
BTN: 152.4 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 78.8 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.6 BB
UTG+1: 192 BB
MP: 140.2 BB
MP+1: 98.6 BB
MP+2: 95.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T:spade: T:club:

Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, CO calls 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (17.4 BB, 4 players) 9:diamond: T:heart: Q:heart:
Hero bets 12.4 BB, MP+1 calls 12.4 BB, fold, BTN raises to 24.8 BB, Hero raises to 48.2 BB, MP+1 raises to 94.6 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero calls 46.4 BB and is all-in

Turn: (231.4 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:

River: (231.4 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:

Thanks for answers and what are the pros and cons of this move?

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Tunkki · Mar 18, 2020

For me it's a no brainer all-in but I won't love the situation. I normally use a bit smaller sizes pre and on the flop but as played imo you just have to go all-in. After the last opponent jams it and you have to call the 46.4bb more to 185bb pot in quick math you have to pay 20% of the pot and you have to odds almost any hand he could have. QQ is the hand you are in bad shape but he would probably raise it pre-flop. He often have KJs in flat range pre but there could be also hands like AJhh, AKhh J9hh or QTs, Q9s, T9s, or 99 where you're a way ahead. Against that bigger stack player you have to be scared only one combination where you're way behind so no brainer all-in for me. Below there is odds for the player from pre-flop to turn if he has the nuts on the flop whats really likely here.

odds pre vs KJs https://gyazo.com/3ce8a53d31647c96ca1bc62fdc3c1e8d
odds on the flop where you have to make the decision and you have 35% https://gyazo.com/5b15b50400699c9203a78e86cad92f87
on the turn you still have good chance to win https://gyazo.com/326af6f51cdd90142f62e8c843f4066f

I hope this helped you and feel free to ask more helps from this hand or any other hand and I try to do my best to help you.

quant1986 · Mar 18, 2020

Don't like the flop 3bet size, I would just jam given stack size as MP+1 may fold some flush draws that have good equity in 3-way all-in scenarios.

As played, it is a sigh call and MP+1's line is exceptionally strong although he may still does it with good equity draws like AJhh,Kh9h,Jh9h

fundiver199 · Mar 18, 2020

I dont like 3-betting the flop, when a very likely hand like KJ flopped a straight. Its easy to think, what does this matter, its only one hand. But its 16 combos, whereas QQ is only 3 combos, and would probably have 3-bet as well. So you dont have the nuts here, and therefore you should just call his raise and hope a little bit for the board to pair.

If MP+1 still back-ships, you probably have to call it off though, so maybe it would not have made any difference this particular time. But the player, who should have KJ most of the time, is not MP+1 but BTN. So this outcome, where BTN raise and then fold, but MP+1 backships, is a bit of an outlier.

Also I am not a huge fan of the 4x open raise. Its very old school and bloats the pot, which create a low SPR especially when it still goes multiway. Its also very unbalanced, if you only does this with your best hands. So even though it might not be huge deal at 5NL, its a habit, I suggest getting rid off. In modern online poker there is rarely any reason to use more than 3x.

Mcclares · Mar 19, 2020

Tunkki said:
For me it's a no brainer all-in but I won't love the situation. I normally use a bit smaller sizes pre and on the flop but as played imo you just have to go all-in. After the last opponent jams it and you have to call the 46.4bb more to 185bb pot in quick math you have to pay 20% of the pot and you have to odds almost any hand he could have. QQ is the hand you are in bad shape but he would probably raise it pre-flop. He often have KJs in flat range pre but there could be also hands like AJhh, AKhh J9hh or QTs, Q9s, T9s, or 99 where you're a way ahead. Against that bigger stack player you have to be scared only one combination where you're way behind so no brainer all-in for me. Below there is odds for the player from pre-flop to turn if he has the nuts on the flop whats really likely here.

odds pre vs KJs https://gyazo.com/3ce8a53d31647c96ca1bc62fdc3c1e8d
odds on the flop where you have to make the decision and you have 35% https://gyazo.com/5b15b50400699c9203a78e86cad92f87
on the turn you still have good chance to win https://gyazo.com/326af6f51cdd90142f62e8c843f4066f

I hope this helped you and feel free to ask more helps from this hand or any other hand and I try to do my best to help you.

Thank you very much)

Tunkki · Mar 19, 2020

Hey Mcclares one more note from that hand! I don't know even what's that AF like really and how you can use that stat but I would say that watch next time 3bet stats and that makes more case in this hand. If his 3bet is like less than 3% or so he could easily have QQ combos in that flatting raise. If the 3bet is around to normal 5-10% or so he probably never have it there. It makes a big difference also to this hand. Villains pfr is 15% which actually seems he could have many hands in flatting range what he probably should 3bet. Here I don't know what sample size you have against the villain. It also affects a lot for the hand.

hackmeplz · Mar 19, 2020

Yep super standard, shove instead of the smallish 3bet on the flop but other than that looks fine. Sorry you ran into QQ/KJ/J8.

Aballinamion · Mar 20, 2020

Are you C-Betting Flop for value OOP, 4-handed pot?

Mcclares said:
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 35/15/1

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 29.6 BB
BTN: 152.4 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 78.8 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.6 BB
UTG+1: 192 BB
MP: 140.2 BB
MP+1: 98.6 BB
MP+2: 95.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T♠ T♣

Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, CO calls 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (17.4 BB, 4 players) 9♦ T♥ Q♥
Hero bets 12.4 BB, MP+1 calls 12.4 BB, fold, BTN raises to 24.8 BB, Hero raises to 48.2 BB, MP+1 raises to 94.6 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero calls 46.4 BB and is all-in

Turn: (231.4 BB, 2 players) 5♠

River: (231.4 BB, 2 players) K♦

Thanks for answers and what are the pros and cons of this move?

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Hello there Mcclares, thank you very much for sharing with the CardsChat community.

The Preflop

It is okay to go for 4x raise at Full-Ring tables, I rather go for 3.5x or when I am on the loose side 3x, but this is personal. I see that you are not playing a 100 blinds strategy, if this is your option, I respect it. Needless to say it is not optimal to play with a 'broken stack'. Advesaries will tend to classify you more as a recreational, since all the regulars of the micros are playing BSS (Big Stack Strategy).
There are one or two cats playing SSS (Short Stack Strategy), but even those are always playing with a stack size of 50 blinds minimum. So when we see a player with 47 blinds on the table we know it is not a regular playing SSS.
We raise and 4 players calls. It really sucks.

The postflop essentials: The Flop: 4-handed Pot OOP

I see no point in betting on such a drawie connected flop out of position in relation to 3-players. Our entire range would do very fine if checks flop out of position. When I say entire range, I mean 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA, none of these hands should be value betting here, maybe bluffing some AKs, AJs, but even so it is kindda spaz in a 4-handed pot. Maybe some AA and KK with the blocker of hearts.
You are not ever betting for value here, when you go for 12 blinds for a pot of 17, do you really expect to be paid by worst hands? And even the bluffs Villain's might have on their ranges are really strong, such as AT, AJ, AK, Jx with a hearts, 8x with a hearts, Kx with a hearts none of these hands are folding and we are almost commiting ourselves on the flop, by betting so huge we are clearly demonstrating/giving away free information:

A) We are damn strong
B) We are never folding too anything anymore. Let it comes!

Betting 2/3 pot out of position in relation to 3 other players to speak you are representing the nuts, which you don't have it with KJ or J8. KJ because you almost never open this combos from UTG at Full-Ring, and J8 you never open, so you don't have any nuts, you have strong value hands and potential semi-bluffs.
When BTN re-raises you here after MP calls I am seriously considering a fold not a re-raise, because you have no idea at all what MP+1 called 2/3 c-bet flop also out of position and you have no ideia what it is going to do after you call/push. If I am a little tilted I could be call when BTN raises but here is very hard because MP+1 is yet to speak.
Now I believe that BTN had a draw and decided to fold and MP+1 always has the nuts with KJ. If not the nuts, it has a pretty damn good OESD+FD, where in the best case scenario, although your sets of 9's, Q's and T's and your KK and AA are monsters, you are winning 60% of times and losing 40%, and then calculate the rake to see that this is not profitable. (at 2 NLHE and 5 NLHE never)
But this is the micros, and whatever we do at the micros is fine, right?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

0815am · Mar 21, 2020

fundiver199 said:
I dont like 3-betting the flop, when a very likely hand like KJ flopped a straight. Its easy to think, what does this matter, its only one hand. But its 16 combos, whereas QQ is only 3 combos, and would probably have 3-bet as well. So you dont have the nuts here, and therefore you should just call his raise and hope a little bit for the board to pair.

If MP+1 still back-ships, you probably have to call it off though, so maybe it would not have made any difference this particular time. But the player, who should have KJ most of the time, is not MP+1 but BTN. So this outcome, where BTN raise and then fold, but MP+1 backships, is a bit of an outlier.

Also I am not a huge fan of the 4x open raise. Its very old school and bloats the pot, which create a low SPR especially when it still goes multiway. Its also very unbalanced, if you only does this with your best hands. So even though it might not be huge deal at 5NL, its a habit, I suggest getting rid off. In modern online poker there is rarely any reason to use more than 3x.

Pretty much this.

Alucard · Mar 21, 2020

ez flop jam

Mcclares · Mar 21, 2020

Aballinamion said:
Hello there Mcclares, thank you very much for sharing with the CardsChat community.

The Preflop

It is okay to go for 4x raise at Full-Ring tables, I rather go for 3.5x or when I am on the loose side 3x, but this is personal. I see that you are not playing a 100 blinds strategy, if this is your option, I respect it. Needless to say it is not optimal to play with a 'broken stack'. Advesaries will tend to classify you more as a recreational, since all the regulars of the micros are playing BSS (Big Stack Strategy).
There are one or two cats playing SSS (Short Stack Strategy), but even those are always playing with a stack size of 50 blinds minimum. So when we see a player with 47 blinds on the table we know it is not a regular playing SSS.
We raise and 4 players calls. It really sucks.

The postflop essentials: The Flop: 4-handed Pot OOP

I see no point in betting on such a drawie connected flop out of position in relation to 3-players. Our entire range would do very fine if checks flop out of position. When I say entire range, I mean 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA, none of these hands should be value betting here, maybe bluffing some AKs, AJs, but even so it is kindda spaz in a 4-handed pot. Maybe some AA and KK with the blocker of hearts.
You are not ever betting for value here, when you go for 12 blinds for a pot of 17, do you really expect to be paid by worst hands? And even the bluffs Villain's might have on their ranges are really strong, such as AT, AJ, AK, Jx with a hearts, 8x with a hearts, Kx with a hearts none of these hands are folding and we are almost commiting ourselves on the flop, by betting so huge we are clearly demonstrating/giving away free information:

A) We are damn strong
B) We are never folding too anything anymore. Let it comes!

Betting 2/3 pot out of position in relation to 3 other players to speak you are representing the nuts, which you don't have it with KJ or J8. KJ because you almost never open this combos from UTG at Full-Ring, and J8 you never open, so you don't have any nuts, you have strong value hands and potential semi-bluffs.
When BTN re-raises you here after MP calls I am seriously considering a fold not a re-raise, because you have no idea at all what MP+1 called 2/3 c-bet flop also out of position and you have no ideia what it is going to do after you call/push. If I am a little tilted I could be call when BTN raises but here is very hard because MP+1 is yet to speak.
Now I believe that BTN had a draw and decided to fold and MP+1 always has the nuts with KJ. If not the nuts, it has a pretty damn good OESD+FD, where in the best case scenario, although your sets of 9's, Q's and T's and your KK and AA are monsters, you are winning 60% of times and losing 40%, and then calculate the rake to see that this is not profitable. (at 2 NLHE and 5 NLHE never)
But this is the micros, and whatever we do at the micros is fine, right?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

You are right as always, but I decided to do raise on the flop, because then I thought it was best move, if I did check, then it has probability that everyone will check and they will get free card, which can beat me, but there were 4 players in the pot and someone had straight or nuts flash draw, Thanks , that you showed me my mistake!

Evan Jarvis · Mar 21, 2020

Mcclares said:
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 35/15/1

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 29.6 BB
BTN: 152.4 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 78.8 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.6 BB
UTG+1: 192 BB
MP: 140.2 BB
MP+1: 98.6 BB
MP+2: 95.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T♠ T♣

Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, CO calls 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (17.4 BB, 4 players) 9♦ T♥ Q♥
Hero bets 12.4 BB, MP+1 calls 12.4 BB, fold, BTN raises to 24.8 BB, Hero raises to 48.2 BB, MP+1 raises to 94.6 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero calls 46.4 BB and is all-in

Turn: (231.4 BB, 2 players) 5♠

River: (231.4 BB, 2 players) K♦

Thanks for answers and what are the pros and cons of this move?

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It looks mostly fine to me.

With all the draws out there your opponent could be getting it in with combos draws, 2 pairs, and the worse set.

Yes you will run into the nuts sometimes or J8s, but against his overall range you have plenty of equity to justify playing for stacks. The only thing slightly concerning is his aggression factor of 1, but I still think we see 2p and bottom set here a lot.

Agree with what quant said that we are better off just jamming the flop rather than making a small raise back. Just ensure all the money goes in, there is no need to get fancy here. :dancing2:

ksandr010 · Mar 23, 2020

On the flop, you made a good bet, but I would bet even more in the pot size, because the game is multipot and if someone called, the next players will get good pot chances. The mp+1 line of play is not entirely clear, but I wouldn't throw out the second-best hand. Maybe he's just overplaying top pair or a flush draw

Aballinamion · Mar 23, 2020

Mcclares said:
You are right as always, but I decided to do raise on the flop, because then I thought it was best move, if I did check, then it has probability that everyone will check and they will get free card, which can beat me, but there were 4 players in the pot and someone had straight or nuts flash draw, Thanks , that you showed me my mistake!

Hey buddy, thanks it is very kind to read it, but I AM NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!
Far from it, the point is not about being right or wrong. The point is really to find alternatives and possibilities so we can think out of the box for not to be standard bet/bet/bet types or standard call/call/call or check/check/check types.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

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$5 NLHE Full Ring: Would you go all-in or not with set in this situation?

Mcclares

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Tunkki

Rock Star

quant1986

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fundiver199

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Mcclares

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Tunkki

Rock Star

hackmeplz

Sleep Faster

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith

0815am

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Alucard

Santoryu

Mcclares

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Evan Jarvis

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ksandr010

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Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith

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