$5 NLHE Full Ring: What move is better call or fold on the turn?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/9/3

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 105.2 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 170.8 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 167.8 BB
UTG: 117.4 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 99 BB
MP: 332.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 0.4 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.8 BB) Hero has T:spade: T:heart:

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13.8 BB, 3 players) 3:heart: 2:diamond: 4:club:
Hero bets 8 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Turn: (29.8 BB, 2 players) 9:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 23.2 BB, Hero calls 23.2 BB

River: (76.2 BB, 2 players) 5:club:
Hero checks, BTN checks

I will publish the result later, I want to know your opinion about move on the turn. What you will do, when you have overpair and get the bet from opponent on the turn? Thanks!

Bet turn!
He can have Ax floats mid pairs etc
check folding river seems fine

I don't understand why most of you guys who are posting hands atm in the forum are playing so passive with good hands.
Don't be so afraid & just bet good hands. You can chek flopzilla to get an idea of the % of a player flopping a set & whatnot.

Mcclares said:

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/9/3

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 105.2 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 170.8 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 167.8 BB
UTG: 117.4 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 99 BB
MP: 332.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 0.4 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.8 BB) Hero has T♠ T♥

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13.8 BB, 3 players) 3♥ 2♦ 4♣
Hero bets 8 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Turn: (29.8 BB, 2 players) 9♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 23.2 BB, Hero calls 23.2 BB

River: (76.2 BB, 2 players) 5♣
Hero checks, BTN checks

I will publish the result later, I want to know your opinion about move on the turn. What you will do, when you have overpair and get the bet from opponent on the turn? Thanks!

Click to expand...

Thank U 4 Posting

Have only read to flop bet and call.

What is the player pool standard UTG raise size?

If this is above average 4bb what do you think you are making your villains think about your range?

Let us assume V's think 4bb means AA KK QQ JJ 1010.

What type of hands would good players call behind you?
Bad Players?

Knowing the above ranges how should we proceed on this flop OOP vs 2 villains.

What did you want your bet on the flop to do Vs the range you gave 2 villains above?

Is there a better bet size in this situation to accomplish your flop goal?

Who has the range advantage on this board?
Who has the nut advantage?

Is it not much more likely your villain has all the sets?

OOP if the turn comes the Ace what is your plan now before it happens?
K? Q? J? 6?

Ok now on to the turn.

Why did we check when the 9 means nothing as far as improving our villains hand.
What is your plan when you call?
Do you know your villains are incorrectly betting one pair smaller than 1010 or worse for that sizing? If so why are we not shoving turn?
If our V's bluff KQ here why again are we not shoving?
If V is betting A4s on the turn why are we not shoving?
To me this sizing is not the nuts, is that different in your player pool?
If they only bet 2 pair or better why are we calling?

If your V's play JJ QQ preflop and flop this way, is checking turn the best way to define those hands?
How often will your player pool naked bluff say A7 on that turn or AJ?
If so would we not check shove vs those hands?

On to the river

check check great

Ok so now how do we analyze the data we get at showdown.
If villain had pair better than us and we expected that possibility do we turn 1010 into a bluff on the river if we check called rather than lead 40% fold to a raise?
If so what sizing? Will villain fold a set? Sizing? 2 pair?

We have all the aces preflop- flop. So knowing our range check call turn has AA AK in it do we ignore 1010 and bluff that river?
Does our range have AA in it if we check call a 9 turn? Does it have AK or AQ AX in it?
With no turned flush draw we have way fewer Ax in our call turn range?
Can our villain think that out or will they just assume the Ax is there?

Once you think through these ranges you then look at you player pool and estimate how many other players would play similarly. Then adjust your approach as you take notes and get more data.

Hope this helps

Agreeing with Alucard. Bet turn for value, heros utg range should contain a lot of Ax wich want to bluff that spot.

Also I would suggest to lower the opening size, go for 2.5bb or 3bb instead of 4bb.

If you are planning to check-fold on a completely blank turn, what is the purpose of betting the flop? Its means per definition, you think, you were betting as a bluff, and that you must be beat, when you get action. But this is simply not true in my opinion. Any AX will call in position, since it has a gutshot draw, and any pocket pair will also call. If he can have 43, he can also have 54, which will also call and so on. As others have said size down especially preflop and continue betting on the turn. If nothing else you get to set your own price, and if you get raised, then we can start to talk about maybe folding.

eetenor said:

Thank U 4 Posting

Have only read to flop bet and call.

What is the player pool standard UTG raise size?

If this is above average 4bb what do you think you are making your villains think about your range?

Let us assume V's think 4bb means AA KK QQ JJ 1010.

What type of hands would good players call behind you?
Bad Players?

Knowing the above ranges how should we proceed on this flop OOP vs 2 villains.

What did you want your bet on the flop to do Vs the range you gave 2 villains above?

Is there a better bet size in this situation to accomplish your flop goal?

Who has the range advantage on this board?
Who has the nut advantage?

Is it not much more likely your villain has all the sets?

OOP if the turn comes the Ace what is your plan now before it happens?
K? Q? J? 6?

Ok now on to the turn.

Why did we check when the 9 means nothing as far as improving our villains hand.
What is your plan when you call?
Do you know your villains are incorrectly betting one pair smaller than 1010 or worse for that sizing? If so why are we not shoving turn?
If our V's bluff KQ here why again are we not shoving?
If V is betting A4s on the turn why are we not shoving?
To me this sizing is not the nuts, is that different in your player pool?
If they only bet 2 pair or better why are we calling?

If your V's play JJ QQ preflop and flop this way, is checking turn the best way to define those hands?
How often will your player pool naked bluff say A7 on that turn or AJ?
If so would we not check shove vs those hands?

On to the river

check check great

Ok so now how do we analyze the data we get at showdown.
If villain had pair better than us and we expected that possibility do we turn 1010 into a bluff on the river if we check called rather than lead 40% fold to a raise?
If so what sizing? Will villain fold a set? Sizing? 2 pair?

We have all the aces preflop- flop. So knowing our range check call turn has AA AK in it do we ignore 1010 and bluff that river?
Does our range have AA in it if we check call a 9 turn? Does it have AK or AQ AX in it?
With no turned flush draw we have way fewer Ax in our call turn range?
Can our villain think that out or will they just assume the Ax is there?

Once you think through these ranges you then look at you player pool and estimate how many other players would play similarly. Then adjust your approach as you take notes and get more data.

Hope this helps

Click to expand...

Thanks for help!

Alucard said:

Bet turn!
He can have Ax floats mid pairs etc
check folding river seems fine

I don't understand why most of you guys who are posting hands atm in the forum are playing so passive with good hands.
Don't be so afraid & just bet good hands. You can chek flopzilla to get an idea of the % of a player flopping a set & whatnot.

Click to expand...

Next time I will do so, you are right!

Why did you check turn?

Mcclares said:

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/9/3

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 105.2 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 170.8 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 167.8 BB
UTG: 117.4 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 99 BB
MP: 332.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 0.4 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.8 BB) Hero has T♠ T♥

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 4 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13.8 BB, 3 players) 3♥ 2♦ 4♣
Hero bets 8 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Turn: (29.8 BB, 2 players) 9♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 23.2 BB, Hero calls 23.2 BB

River: (76.2 BB, 2 players) 5♣
Hero checks, BTN checks

I will publish the result later, I want to know your opinion about move on the turn. What you will do, when you have overpair and get the bet from opponent on the turn? Thanks!

Click to expand...

Hey Mcclares, thanks for sharing your hand.

Preflop

At Full Ring tables I don't mind going for 4x preflop raise, because we are never lying, our range is always strong and we are almost always calling 3-bets or 4-betting. Since players love to call preflop, 4x reduces a little their odds. However 3.5x would do just fine for a Full Ring table.

Flop:

It is a medium-good flop for our range and Villain seems a decent TAG, given these stats of 16/9/3, maybe BTN/Villain is calling a little more than it should, but you must seek to know the stat Call Open (How % often Villain calls preflop BTN x UTG?), for having a better picture of its range. It looks like tight.
Now this is the kind of flop where I am not sure if we are c-betting entirely, with all of our Ax and Kx that might open from EP. Our pocket pairs are always c-betting here for value, but this is not a very scary flop and 1/2 pot will work as much as 2/3 pot.
Which hands we want to extract value? Some 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, Ace highs +BD, Kings high+BD, 5x, 6x, 7x (maybe), it all will depend on how much this Villain goes C-bet flop and c-bet turn.
Your c-bet flop is okay, but for the times Villain check-raises you here representing sets, two pair and maybe JJ+, it will be very hard for you to fold. And I guess you shouldn't yet, in the case this happens.
Versus some kind of players I am not even c-betting this connected flop. Not because I am scary of Villain to have hit a set or two pair, but because I play my entire range the same way. Checking flop allow us to control pot, and we must always remember that is not so easy to play out of position as it seems.

Turn:

I don't know why did you check to this brick 9 here, perhaps for pot control and Villain goes for a very large bet on the turn, 3/4 pot I guess. Here you must really ask yourself which bluffs BTN has now, given that it is in a little range disadvantage? Where a TAG player found that it is a good idea to be bluffing UTG in position, in a spot where you have not only TT, but JJ, QQ, KK and AA, and those hands are never folding here, not even under a hammer crash! So does TT, I believe it is a little bit wrong to be folding here, although Villain doesn't have many bluffs, no flush draws, the only straight draws that could be bluffing here are spaz Ax, 5x (or 55) and 6x (or 66)?
We don't know how much does Villain call BTN x UTG, so it is hard to say if it has low suited connectors in its range or not. However, BTN's line of Bet vs Missed C-bet is very weak and many times exploitative. We must call.

River

Given that BTN showed a lot of strength on the Turn, I see no point to be donk leading the turn, unless we are decided to go for stacks. Our hand has plenty of showdown value and if Villain bets again we can call depending on the sizing. Not that I am scared of anything right now, I just do not understand the logic of check-calling turn and leading river, turning our value hand into a bluff: we already have a very good pot size, why risk everything because we are greedy?
There is still the chance of Villain to bluff some 9x? 7x? hard. If Villain completed a straight on the river it would almost never be checking behind. This bet vs missed c-bet turn, plus check-behind turn is a clear indication that Villain had more bluffs than values on its range.Ax, two pair and sets are betting versus UTG this river almost 100% of times to get paid for TT+ and to be breakeven in some spots versus AK, AQ.
Both checking this river and betting are fine lines. Personally, versus TAg ish Villain I would check-call 70% til a 100% pot bet and c-bet 30% or jam, hoping to be paid by A9s, K9s, etc.
If Villain checked behind some spaz two pair, sets or straights, it is not because Villain is way to passive. It is because it thought that there aren't many hands paying a River shove right now and put more money in the pot to get a lot of folds only increases the rake: we bet when we know that we can get paid, not because we have "a value hand" and let's bet hoping that our opponent is spaz enough to be hero calling with dominated hands.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Wow.. great reading for myself.. always learning, observing, and taking notes

FLOP: standard bet, the villain looks like he has straight draws like 67s or low pocket pairs

TURN: You should always bet SMALL up to half pot in that spot to extract value from low pocket pairs and high cards like ace highs

RIVER: Tough spot but we have to check and call small bet from the villain

I would probably bet 3 streets and fold to a shove. Bet smaller on the river as a kind of blocker value bet.