$5 NLHE Full Ring: Tough spot with ladies preflop

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Tricky123bet

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 162.4 BB (VPIP: 19.94, PFR: 16.34, 3Bet Preflop: 9.23, hands: 363)
SB: 50.8 BB (VPIP: 44.59, PFR: 10.81, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 74)
BB: 205.6 BB (VPIP: 30.56, PFR: 19.44, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 36)
UTG: 113.6 BB (VPIP: 12.12, PFR: 12.12, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 33)
Hero (MP): 116.2 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 6.90, PFR: 5.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q:spade: Q:diamond:

UTG raises to 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 4.6 BB, BB raises to 25 BB, UTG calls 20 BB, Hero raises to 116.2 BB and is all-in, fold, BB calls 91.2 BB, UTG calls 88.6 BB and is all-in

Flop: (351 BB, 3 players) T:club: A:spade: J:heart:

Turn: (351 BB, 3 players) 9:heart:

River: (351 BB, 3 players) 3:diamond:

[spoil]BB shows K:club: K:diamond: (One Pair, Kings)

Main Pot [345.8 BB]: (Pre 58%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Side Pot#1 [5.2 BB]: (Pre 81%, Flop 89%, Turn 86%)

Hero shows Q:spade: Q:diamond: (One Pair, Queens)

Main Pot [345.8 BB]: (Pre 18%, Flop 10%, Turn 14%)
Side Pot#1 [5.2 BB]: (Pre 19%, Flop 11%, Turn 14%)

UTG shows A:heart: T:diamond: (Two Pair, Aces and Tens)

Main Pot [345.8 BB]: (Pre 24%, Flop 81%, Turn 81%)

BB wins 5 BB
UTG wins 331.4 BB
[/spoil]

So my opponents are unknowns, and I tanked for a long time before shoving. My reasoning was that UTG raisor probably doesn't have AA or KK after calling the 3bet, and if both of them have AK, or if they at least share the ace, I have very good equity to take both of their stacks. Because at least I can't fold the QQ, can I?
 
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sarniack

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So you are assuming that they don't have aces and kings, because they just called, but you actually called as well? ;)

I've seen all kind of weird plays with pocket pairs on micro stakes, on 2NL I've seen a lot of limping with pocket aces or kings and it is of course hard to see this coming. In the long run they are loosing money, because with multiple callers there is much bigger chance of high pocket pairs being stacked with stronger hands.

I think that you made a mistake by just calling UTG open, not raising. 200BB deep, if I get 4bet / 5bet from BB, I am rather assuming that their range is QQ+, AK and I think I would go towards tight discipline fold (I don't like flips as best case scenarios that deep). But when you just called, it is hard to put BB on that range, because when you show weakness by calling, BB will be raising wider.

If you raised and they both called, the flop would have saved you here probably (I wouldn't continue aggression on such board with QQ). But with lower dry flop you are probably getting stacked anyway. Hard spot definitely ;)
 
monkey23

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BB raises to 25 BBs...the pot at this stage was 15BBs...AA / KK must be included in that range surely..? A flat call here would have, imo, been a much better play than shoving here with QQ...no need to shove.
The A J T flop would have then allowed you to avoid losing your stack.
 
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Tricky123bet

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So you are assuming that they don't have aces and kings, because they just called, but you actually called as well? ;)

I've seen all kind of weird plays with pocket pairs on micro stakes, on 2NL I've seen a lot of limping with pocket aces or kings and it is of course hard to see this coming. In the long run they are loosing money, because with multiple callers there is much bigger chance of high pocket pairs being stacked with stronger hands.

I think that you made a mistake by just calling UTG open, not raising. 200BB deep, if I get 4bet / 5bet from BB, I am rather assuming that their range is QQ+, AK and I think I would go towards tight discipline fold (I don't like flips as best case scenarios that deep). But when you just called, it is hard to put BB on that range, because when you show weakness by calling, BB will be raising wider.

If you raised and they both called, the flop would have saved you here probably (I wouldn't continue aggression on such board with QQ). But with lower dry flop you are probably getting stacked anyway. Hard spot definitely ;)

I called to keep his range as wide as possible, often getting to play IP postflop as well. Because notice that there are only 6 players dealt into the hand. If there was 9 players at the table, I would probably have 3bet instead. And isn't it good for me if BB 3bets a wider range?
UTG doesn't feel very strong to me, and whether or not UTG is calling the shove, there's a lot of dead money in the pot, so I won't have to win as often. And counting in the times that I'm flipping against BB/dominating him if he has JJ, and also the times they both have AK and we get it in (>60% equity in that case!), I think a shove is not too bad.
But I agree, it's close for sure between folding and getting it in.
 
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Tricky123bet

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BB raises to 25 BBs...the pot at this stage was 15BBs...AA / KK must be included in that range surely..? A flat call here would have, imo, been a much better play than shoving here with QQ...no need to shove.
The A J T flop would have then allowed you to avoid losing your stack.

Imo flat calling is the worst option out of all. Yes we are getting a decent prize, but apart from that it's just too weak.
I will just have to fold on most Axx boards and Kxx boards. I'm still getting stacked vs. KK or AA if the board comes with undercards. And AK will rarely pay me off in any way if it misses.
If I knew that BB was a complete aggrotard, that will bluff AK/AQ/AJ when he misses in a 3way pot, then maybe it would be closer to a call. But even then I think it's just better to shove pre, since it guarantees that I can get paid when he has AK especially.
 
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sarniack

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I called to keep his range as wide as possible, often getting to play IP postflop as well. Because notice that there are only 6 players dealt into the hand. If there was 9 players at the table, I would probably have 3bet instead.

I would prefer to get money when they fold or play 3bet pot heads up with QQ. Definitely wouldn't want to welcome more people with that hand (in general, because in this exact spot money goes in no matter what).

And isn't it good for me if BB 3bets a wider range?

I actually expressed this in wrong way: BB 3bet range is wider than his 4bet range. You have less information definitely. I am not saying calling is wrong decision, because you have less information, I am just saying that less information is outcome of that decision, so it is harder to put BB on certain range (I believe that information is only side effect of play, not its main purpose, like for instance Annie Duke writes in her books).

UTG doesn't feel very strong to me, and whether or not UTG is calling the shove, there's a lot of dead money in the pot, so I won't have to win as often. And counting in the times that I'm flipping against BB/dominating him if he has JJ, and also the times they both have AK and we get it in (>60% equity in that case!), I think a shove is not too bad.
But I agree, it's close for sure between folding and getting it in.

The problem is that you were not faced with folding or getting it in, you were faced with raising or calling.

Lets say that you raised 2.5x (because initial raise was quite big in the first place), so to 12.5BB, then BB raises to about 30BB, then UTG raises all in and now it gets back to you. Now you know that UTG is not weak (unless he is stupid and bluffs for > 100BB deep in that spot) and you have also to worry about BB a bit. It is totally different decision.

Of course UTG could flat call, we never know what would happen, but I still think that even on 6max it is better play to just 3bet. In general it would be tough spot, no matter what, I am not sure if I would play correctly there ;) It is always easier to analyse then to play ;)
 
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Tricky123bet

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I would prefer to get money when they fold or play 3bet pot heads up with QQ. Definitely wouldn't want to welcome more people with that hand (in general, because in this exact spot money goes in no matter what).



I actually expressed this in wrong way: BB 3bet range is wider than his 4bet range. You have less information definitely. I am not saying calling is wrong decision, because you have less information, I am just saying that less information is outcome of that decision, so it is harder to put BB on certain range (I believe that information is only side effect of play, not its main purpose, like for instance Annie Duke writes in her books).



The problem is that you were not faced with folding or getting it in, you were faced with raising or calling.

Lets say that you raised 2.5x (because initial raise was quite big in the first place), so to 12.5BB, then BB raises to about 30BB, then UTG raises all in and now it gets back to you. Now you know that UTG is not weak (unless he is stupid and bluffs for > 100BB deep in that spot) and you have also to worry about BB a bit. It is totally different decision.

Of course UTG could flat call, we never know what would happen, but I still think that even on 6max it is better play to just 3bet. In general it would be tough spot, no matter what, I am not sure if I would play correctly there ;) It is always easier to analyse then to play ;)

QQ is quite a tough hand to play. Because when you get 4bet, what do you do? So at least with QQ I choose to flat sometimes, and still be in control postflop in position. And that is against an unknown opponent. If I knew UTG was continuing with a wide enough range to my 3bet, then a 3bet is to prefer. And seeing UTG calling all-in with ATo, had I known that before, I also think 3betting would have been better.
 
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Flatting is good because it keeps UTG range uncapped. UTG 3bet calling range crushes queens for sure. Also he looks nity though sample size is too small.
Jaming all-in is 100% mistake from my point of view because:
1) usually even on microstakes everybody has intuitive instinct not to 3bet light EP openers OOP. With squeezing its even harder for him to have some bluffs because calling now is such a profitable option. It offers great impied ods because of 2 strong ranges in the hand already.
2) When UTG calls we can't capp his range because of popular slowplaying mistake on microlimits.
3) When everybody has such strong ranges you probably have no fold equity at all so its an obvious call and not jam because you usually getting in hands that either crush you or coinflip against you which is bad.
So its just better to call and decide on the flop what to do next
 
Figaroo2

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I prefer a 3bet preflop for value, this is 6max not FR the UTG range will be weaker than in FR. I might have just called in FR.
Then if we get cold 4bet by the BB then we have a much better idea of what we are up against.
As played a shove is ambitious and high variance but still a viable play imo. I agree with the reasoning that UTG likely doesn't have AA or KK but it can't be ruled out.
The BB can be pretty wide as well in a standard squeeze spot like this, you say he's an aggro tard, there isn't that much evidence of that in the stats... we haven't seen a 3bet yet.
So calling is still an option here preflop after the squeeze and call. I would have called and progressed with caution.
 
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UTG 3bet calling range crushes queens for sure.

UTG had ATo, so his 3bet calling range is wide as heck...
I agree that the average opponent might not call that wide. I think TT+, AKo, AQs+ is a fair assessment for his 3bet calling range. And QQ performs pretty well against that.

3) When everybody has such strong ranges you probably have no fold equity at all so its an obvious call and not jam because you usually getting in hands that either crush you or coinflip against you which is bad.
So its just better to call and decide on the flop what to do next

So calling is still an option here preflop after the squeeze and call. I would have called and progressed with caution.

I still can't see how a call could be good. If I call, the SPR on the flop would be only a little over 1, so there isn't any room to "progress with caution".
If I think I'm ahead I should shove pre, and if I think I'm up against at least one pair of KK or AA I should fold. The flop doesn't change anything, except letting AK or AQ get there sometimes. If the flop comes say 57J, I'm still getting stacked by AA and KK, and AK will fold. When instead getting it in pre against AK with a 55/45 equity edge, and even better if they block each others outs.

So I might agree that I could have 3bet instead of calling the UTG raise, but calling and "re-evaluating on the flop", when the SPR is so small, must surely be the worst option of the three?
 
Figaroo2

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So I might agree that I could have 3bet instead of calling the UTG raise, but calling and "re-evaluating on the flop", when the SPR is so small, must surely be the worst option of the three?

Yes but you put yourself in a bad spot by not raising. I wouldn't have let myself get in that spot by calling in the first place.
You can't fold, its too nitty at 6max so the option is shove or call. You shoved I said that's viable, you were at the table with info on the BB that isn't evident in the stats.
Personally I would have called looked at the flop and then probably folded to any decent sized flop bet if I didn't improve. I'd rather lose 25bb than 115bb. Shoving just isn't to my taste as you are pretty much just guessing and hoping the BB doesn't have the overpair which he should have a lot, (and did) usually here at best you are up against AK and occasionally JJ TT. Big squeezes like this at 5nl are nearly always the goods, 95% of 5Nl players aren't good enough to squeeze light. The UTG made a bad play and got there but he wouldn't have been in there calling a cold 4 bet from the BB if you had 3 bet... and you are supposed to lose your money QQ v KK there anyway.
 
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Yes but you put yourself in a bad spot by not raising. I wouldn't have let myself get in that spot by calling in the first place.
You can't fold, its too nitty at 6max so the option is shove or call. You shoved I said that's viable, you were at the table with info on the BB that isn't evident in the stats.
Personally I would have called looked at the flop and then probably folded to any decent sized flop bet if I didn't improve. I'd rather lose 25bb than 115bb. Shoving just isn't to my taste as you are pretty much just guessing and hoping the BB doesn't have the overpair which he should have a lot, (and did) usually here at best you are up against AK and occasionally JJ TT. Big squeezes like this at 5nl are nearly always the goods, 95% of 5Nl players aren't good enough to squeeze light. The UTG made a bad play and got there but he wouldn't have been in there calling a cold 4 bet from the BB if you had 3 bet... and you are supposed to lose your money QQ v KK there anyway.

Is the call of the initial UTG raise really THAT bad though? Because it's an interesting dynamic that it's 6handed at a full ring table. It depends a lot on if the other players will adjust to that at all, which is why I thought UTG open could still be fairly tight. I guess it was his open size that made me slightly worried too. QQ is not always a slam dunk 3bet like some people may think. That said, I still agree with you that in this spot it's probably a mistake to not 3bet, but I don't think it's THAT big of a mistake.

But we still have to analyze "as played". And you suggest calling the squeeze and folding unless we improve. Improve to what, a set? If we are going to fold on all Kxx, Axx AND undercards to our queens if villain bets, or check down Axx and Kxx boards and get no value from JJ or TT, how is flatting 20bb going to make us any money?

You say folding is too nitty (even though you think either of them has KK or AA a fair chunk of the time? :confused: ) but how on earth could calling be to prefer?
 
Figaroo2

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Is the call of the initial UTG raise really THAT bad though? Because it's an interesting dynamic that it's 6handed at a full ring table. It depends a lot on if the other players will adjust to that at all, which is why I thought UTG open could still be fairly tight. I guess it was his open size that made me slightly worried too. QQ is not always a slam dunk 3bet like some people may think. That said, I still agree with you that in this spot it's probably a mistake to not 3bet, but I don't think it's THAT big of a mistake.

But we still have to analyze "as played". And you suggest calling the squeeze and folding unless we improve. Improve to what, a set? If we are going to fold on all Kxx, Axx AND undercards to our queens if villain bets, or check down Axx and Kxx boards and get no value from JJ or TT, how is flatting 20bb going to make us any money?

You say folding is too nitty (even though you think either of them has KK or AA a fair chunk of the time? :confused: ) but how on earth could calling be to prefer?

I'm 3betting QQ nearly always unless the opener has a pfr of less than 6.
I never trap with QQ I don't see many reasons to flat QQ here. I sometimes flat AA if there is a squeezer behind me.

Ok on thinking about it lets widen the range here. I would suggest that in a single raised pot like this the 3bet squeeze here can easily come from AA KK JJ TT 99 AK AQ AJs as a minimum range. Didn't you say he was a bit of a monkey?
The fact that we are ahead of more than we are behind means I think I can still call in position.
If the flop has an overcard and there are decent sized bets we can fold but we can call shoves on undercard boards and still beat JJ TT 99 AK AQ AJ.
In fact if the BB had AK AQ AJ and whiffed I'd expect the BB to check with two players to act behind him. If it checks to us we can shove and still get called by worse.

If it were a 3bet pot then the 4bet squeeze range from the BB is going to be much tighter if UTG still came along then we can fold much more easily.
 
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John A

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I don't hate the pre-flop call with a BTN that has almost 10% 3-bet. But ak played, if someone is 3-bet squeezing an UTG open and a MP flat, and hasn't 3-bet yet, I'm giving him credit. Especially after UTG just calls, I'm folding. I'd expect AK to jam at that point to try and get all small pairs to fold (which is the right equity play). You'll be behind more often than not in this spot.
 
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Remember that the stats on opponents are from full ring, I think it became 6 handed a little before this hand started. So BB's squeeze range doesn't have to be very tight (we really don't know because sample size is a problem), but I would expect JJ+,AK, and maybe TT or AQs sometimes.
Figaroo2, I never said BB was a bit of a monkey (since he was still an unknown to me).
At the time I basically assumed that UTG couldn't have AA or KK (even though it is possible). So I wanted to capitalize on that by shoving and battling against the BB's range.
All in all I think it's a close spot, between the good scenarios where I'm up against AK and AK, and the bad ones where BB has AA or KK
 
Aces2w1n

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BB raise against UTG by quite a lot does hint danger to me and quite high... On thing ive noticed is how players these days lack any creativeness.

Most times when people bet or raise it is exactly what it is.
 
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