$5 NLHE Full Ring: Should I have folded on river?

Lilli3

Lilli3

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$5 NL HE Full Ring: Should I have folded on river?

Feeling uncertain how to handle action on the river lately. Should I have folded instead of called? I felt sure I had it until the Q hit then I wasn't sure what to do.


full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 839400
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $1.82
BB: $5.19
UTG: $3.02
UTG+1: $4.19
UTG+2: $3.56
Hero (MP1): $3.74
MP2: $2.08
CO: $4.94
BTN: $1.26

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is MP1 with A
club.gif
T
club.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.35) 5
diamond.gif
6
heart.gif
A
spade.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.25, SB calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.85) T
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB calls $0.20

River: ($1.25) Q
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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Hey,

I'm just going to get it out of the way and tell you to turn on the auto-rebuy, that way you always start off with 100bbs or 5 bucks.

Preflop and the flop are fine imo. The turn is sort of where you messed it up. Always try and bet around 3/4-2/3 the size of the pot, other wise you're giving the guy odds to chase any draws. As you can see your bet was super small on the turn so he very well could have hit a flush on the river. On the river i guess you can call but don't be surprised when he has you beat
 
tenbob

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+1 either play with the max or the min. Especially on the micro's, playing with the max is best.

People need to realise that when you bet you do it for a reason, for value or as a bluff, you need to size your bets so that inferior hands make a mistake calling you. Betting so small on the turn makes any back-door flush draw 100% correct in their play, bet wayyyyy bigger.

Dont fold the river ever, why are people going so out of their way lately to find folds ?
 
TheUndertaker

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I agree with the statements above the turn bet was 2 small easy call on draws bet at least 3/4 of the pot.
 
B

bigjoker66

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What kind of turn bet is that? What are you trying to do with a 25% pot bet on the turn? It was smaller than your flop bet and reeks of weakness. Don't you want him betting into you on the river? At minimum you have to call here, why not raise? Do you really think he has KJ or AQ or 2 hearts here?
 
Lilli3

Lilli3

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Actually, good read or bad, I wasn't very concerned about the flush draw. I thought he had an A anything and it looked to me like I had it on the turn. I wanted him to read my bet as weak. I wasn't nervous until I saw the Q, thinking he had two pair. That's the part I'm unsure about...being uncertain about the Q...should I have folded or called?

I'm not ignoring the advice about betting him out of the pot on the turn because of the flush draw. I agree and, normally, I make a much bigger bet there. Maybe my AT looked too good to me and it clouded my judgment but I felt pretty sure he didn't have the hearts.

As for auto-rebuy, I'm beginning to use it more. If I begin a losing streak, I get uneasy about losing track of how much I've played with and turn it off. I'm a beginner at cash games.
 
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PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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On the turn, I would suggest putting him all-in. Think about it. The pot size is $0.85. You got $3.34 while the villain's got $1.42. Pot size here is pretty much putting him nearly all-in. Just raise it to $1.42, which tells the villain that you're trying to put him all-in. By raising 25 cents into a pot of 85 cents, not only is he getting nearly a good price to make his flush or straight, he will have good implied odds of getting rest of your chips. By overbetting, you protect the pot and leave yourself with no decision to make on the river. At microstakes, players are very capable of calling all-in bets with any wide range of hands, such as any Ace, 78o, 47o, flush draws, middle pairs, even possibly gutshot draws(because I have seen worse).

Another thing, although it didn't matter in this hand since villain was shorter than you, put auto-rebuy on. I know it's hard to do but you want to maximize your win rate while not remembering your wins/losses as it'll affect you psychologically if you don't have it on. It's gonna suck so much when you lost a huge pot that cripples your stack and then next hand, you're dealt pocket Aces or a flopped set. I had a hard time getting in habit of auto-rebuying but in the long run, as long as you have good bankroll management, you shouldn't worry about keeping track of losing few blinds. If you have Holdem Manager or Pokertracker3, it'll help you keep track of them anyways.
 
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B

bigjoker66

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Actually, good read or bad, I wasn't very concerned about the flush draw. I thought he had an A anything and it looked to me like I had it on the turn. I wanted him to read my bet as weak. I wasn't nervous until I saw the Q, thinking he had two pair. That's the part I'm unsure about...being uncertain about the Q...should I have folded or called?

What you tried to make happen, happened! With the small bet on the turn, I see no reason to fold here. Its not even a half pot bet on the river. You really think he hit a 3 outer on you here? You said you thought he had A-anything. How do you think he would have played A-5?


As for auto-rebuy, I'm beginning to use it more. If I begin a losing streak, I get uneasy about losing track of how much I've played with and turn it off. I'm a beginner at cash games.

Don't feel you have to playing 100bb stacks if you are not comfortable doing it. You can reduce variance by playing shorter. You don't win as much on your all-in hands, but you also don't loose as much when you make a mistake. If you make a lot of mistakes you end up loosing less money. As you get better you will be wanting to keep your stack at max buy-in more and more.
 
Lilli3

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The way I was thinking at the time was that if he had A5 or A6, on the turn, he would have called my bet or raised me. Also, I was thinking that if he had A high kicker, he would do the same.

Clearly, the general consensus is that I should have bet larger and I can see the reasons why. By the time I reached the river, I suspected it, too. The question is, even knowing that I might have made a faulty move on the turn, I should have called or raised and not folded? I tend to choke on the river and my tendency is to fold. I'm trying to become more deliberate and less knee jerk in this kind of situation.


Another thing, although it didn't matter in this hand since villain was shorter than you, put auto-rebuy on. I know it's hard to do but you want to maximize your win rate while not remembering your wins/losses as it'll affect you psychologically if you don't have it on. It's gonna suck so much when you lost a huge pot that cripples your stack and then next hand, you're dealt pocket Aces or a flopped set. I had a hard time getting in habit of auto-rebuying but in the long run, as long as you have good bankroll management, you shouldn't worry about keeping track of losing few blinds. If you have Holdem Manager or Pokertracker3, it'll help you keep track of them anyways.

Don't feel you have to playing 100bb stacks if you are not comfortable doing it. You can reduce variance by playing shorter. You don't win as much on your all-in hands, but you also don't loose as much when you make a mistake. If you make a lot of mistakes you end up loosing less money. As you get better you will be wanting to keep your stack at max buy-in more and more.


I think I'm going to start a new post about auto-rebuy because I'm seeing that there is alot that I don't understand about it. The above points are ones I've not even thought about.

Thanks for all the input, guys.
 
ljove

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Turn bet should be 0.8-1$
You should call river bet,it is not so much.
Anyway bet higher
 
Melkor

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Echo statements here about buying in for the maximum and that the turn bet is too small, at these stakes you can happily extract value at 3/4 pot from quite a few hands you are crushing. As played you have to call river and even with bigger bets his stack is so small that you should be shipping and being pleased about it.

On the turn, I would suggest putting him all-in. Think about it. The pot size is $0.85. You got $3.34 while the villain's got $1.42. Pot size here is pretty much putting him nearly all-in. Just raise it to $1.42, which tells the villain that you're trying to put him all-in.

I diasgree with putting him all-in on the turn. With the villains stack size we are getting it in here all the time after the turn, so the question is how to extract value from the villain. It may be a moot point at these stakes but a $0.65 bet on the turn followed by a river shove is probably more likely to lure worst hands in rather than rushing in on the turn with an overbet.

By overbetting, you protect the pot and leave yourself with no decision to make on the river. At microstakes, players are very capable of calling all-in bets with any wide range of hands, such as any Ace, 78o, 47o, flush draws, middle pairs, even possibly gutshot draws(because I have seen worse).

This is why I disagree with the logic of a turn shove. We shouldn't be making moves to limit decisions, our decision making should be where we try to gain an edge. Sure, they are capable of making bad calls but a turn shove could scare away some hands as I mentioned above that two value bets would induce.
 
Lilli3

Lilli3

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Having played the past few days with the input I've received here in mind, I can definitely see the merit in two value bets in this type of situation. I'm betting more aggressively on the turn and my opponents, with weak hands, stay with me and then again on the river.

This is why I disagree with the logic of a turn shove. We shouldn't be making moves to limit decisions, our decision making should be where we try to gain an edge. Sure, they are capable of making bad calls but a turn shove could scare away some hands as I mentioned above that two value bets would induce.

If I understand what you're saying, I don't really need to be inducing them but it might be possible to scare them off if I push too hard on the turn.
 
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