$5 NLHE Full Ring: Raised with JJ on sb, bb 3-bets

M

MREM

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I raise JJ from the SB with 2 limpers in front and get 3-bet by the BB.
Only info on villain is that he plays 12 tables.
I call, he cbets and I fold.

I called too fast and should've had a plan before calling.

Reviewing the hand I probably should have folded, or does his range include AQ,AK often enough to make it good?
The flop probably missses both of us and he cbets. Question here is do I raise and fold any other bets from him if he calls or just fold right away?

poker stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -

Hero (SB): $5.50
BB: $6.25
UTG: $4.98
UTG+1: $3.31
UTG+2: $5.00
MP1: $6.20
MP2: $5.02
CO: $1.16
BTN: $4.98

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is SB with J :spade: J :heart:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, 3 folds, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, BB raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 5 :heart: 3 :heart: 3 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.95, Hero folds
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Do anything except what you did.

Normally I just stack off pre, but you could also do the slow play thing.

Just don't call off 20% of your stack and fold against a standard resteal on a flop that favors your hand.
 
Aces2w1n

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yeah that fold really felt like an electric shock. Didnt expect that

we call here because villain can have air here a lot of the time and he will cbet with his entire range.

i dont like flatting pre oop aka calling the 70cents and when we are in the worst spot here with position flatting the original raiser is best and aim for setmining cheap.
 
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braveslice

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Our equity is not good pre so folding is fine to 3bet especially when OOP, and we don’t really have good odds to set mine.

On the flop the pot is annoyingly large, if you call you are pot committed in most cases, folding hurts but maybe the best is to lick your wounds and go after easier wins.
 
George Lewis

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To me the key here is you are in the small blind. So I just complete and act like I do not have anything special. If I raise and the BB 3 bets I snap shove especially since he 12 tables. All actions I take will be instant against him. I can't fold the way it was played and I am not waiting for an over card to give me an excuse to fold so I check shove and make sure I am reloaded.
 
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I was definitely out of my comfort zone in this hand.

Thanks for the advice.
 
c9h13no3

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George & Brave need to lay off the crack... their advice burns money.
 
John A

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DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
Board: 5h 3h 3s Xx Xx


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

56.718% 55.9482% 0.7698% [ JhJs ]

43.282% 42.5122% 0.7698% [ TT+(100), AJs+(100), A5s(100), AQo+(100) ]

If he's 12 tabling, he'll probably be even wider than this, but to be on the conservative side and give you a basic understanding of where you're at.

You have an equity calculator correct?
 
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braveslice

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@c9 & @John A, Ok I got the range wrong. Seems it too long since I have played full ring 5NL regular.

In 6 max zoom 5NL the normal range would be more like {some AK, KK+} given he is multi tabler, sometimes QQ if he is laggish lol.

I assume because the table number is so high, he is assumed to be some kind of NL100 reg practicing multi tabling in lower limits?
 
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braveslice

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Nah, we know SB raising range vs limpers is very strong because they most likely will call (both of them) and SB is playing big pot out of position against call happy players. Without more information we have to assume BB and SB ranges are almost 100% value especially when all players are unknown, because they are mostly, exception being that they belong to certain player type groups (c9-group I guess ;) ), but we can’t assume that without proof.

Now given NL5 multi tabling style is nit, because player would instantly move to NL10 if they would be any skilled because money in NL10 is more loose, because all weekend warriors play there. 5 dollars is too little excitement after couple of beers and all the promos (like card hunt) are only valid in NL10. We can, with big certainty, tighten BB range. Also we know because of many tables he will also know that SB range is very strong, also he knows that limpers still will sometimes call and also that SB will call quite often (SB range is strong, and calling mistakes after showing interest are common even with mediocre hand). All in all, villain's range is very tight to 3bet.
 
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M

MREM

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DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
Board: 5h 3h 3s Xx Xx


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

56.718% 55.9482% 0.7698% [ JhJs ]

43.282% 42.5122% 0.7698% [ TT+(100), AJs+(100), A5s(100), AQo+(100) ]

If he's 12 tabling, he'll probably be even wider than this, but to be on the conservative side and give you a basic understanding of where you're at.

You have an equity calculator correct?

Yes, I calculated an even tighter range and was still about 55% equity.
Folding was not a good move given that sort of range.
 
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braveslice

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If we go a bit tighter, for example { JJ+,AQs+,A5s,AKo} we have 41% equity, enough imo to fold pre.
 
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Vini_lepoker

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In my opinion a player 12 tabling at max doesn't have much time to think and tends to be tight. Given that I'd be more inclined to fold preflop, calling is the worst because any A,K,Q will kill your action, plus you're OOP.
 
John A

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In my opinion a player 12 tabling at max doesn't have much time to think and tends to be tight. Given that I'd be more inclined to fold preflop, calling is the worst because any A,K,Q will kill your action, plus you're OOP.

I agree with what you guys are saying above, that's why I put a tight range in there. That's only a 5.3% 3-bet range. I think you guys made a wrong assumption about what I meant for a 12 tabler. It just meant he's going to play a tight range, but he's going to have a bluff or two in his range in the right spots (this is "a right spot"). If he's 12 tabling, even at small stakes like this, he has the standard ranges down and knows something about poker. This isn't some spot that takes a ton of time to evaluate and understand.

If you think someone is only going to have the nuts here, I think that's a bad assumption imho. You can weight the ranges slightly different, but it's still going to be a call pre-flop, which isn't a bad play pre-flop. I know it's not comfortable playing these spots in poker, but it is the highest EV line. 4-betting is a mistake, and clearly folding is an even bigger mistake, because your equity to the flop is even higher than your all-in equity.
 
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Hmm I agree with the (this is “a right spot”), but I would add also that this is the right spot in theory the practicality might be different thing, the follow through hardly ever is there if you are not c9.

Another grief I have here OTF our +50% equity is true, but given both flop and turn our equity can be misleading because quite often we are dominated and we are mostly pot committed when we call. If villain has Ax hand, we don’t get more. This however is just a hunch, but I’m going to give a new CardrunnersEV a go, not promising that I get a meaningful result though =) (and it takes a week – at least).
 
Aces2w1n

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I agree with what you guys are saying above, that's why I put a tight range in there. That's only a 5.3% 3-bet range. I think you guys made a wrong assumption about what I meant for a 12 tabler. It just meant he's going to play a tight range, but he's going to have a bluff or two in his range in the right spots (this is "a right spot"). If he's 12 tabling, even at small stakes like this, he has the standard ranges down and knows something about poker. This isn't some spot that takes a ton of time to evaluate and understand.

If you think someone is only going to have the nuts here, I think that's a bad assumption imho. You can weight the ranges slightly different, but it's still going to be a call pre-flop, which isn't a bad play pre-flop. I know it's not comfortable playing these spots in poker, but it is the highest EV line. 4-betting is a mistake, and clearly folding is an even bigger mistake, because your equity to the flop is even higher than your all-in equity.

flatting better rather than raising 20?
 
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I usually assume (maybe incorrectly) that multitablers play very snug. However, I agree with OP that tough spots come up in poker and thats part of the fun/challenge.

I think I call the flop bet and reevaluate on the turn. He could be doing this with air or 66-TT also... So you are in great shape if hey has one of the holdings....
 
c9h13no3

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flatting better rather than raising 20?
Depends on which mistake your opponent is more likely to make: stacking light or bluffing off to you. Conventional wisdom says the latter at 5nl, but I think it's closer than John will tell you.
 
Aces2w1n

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Depends on which mistake your opponent is more likely to make: stacking light or bluffing off to you. Conventional wisdom says the latter at 5nl, but I think it's closer than John will tell you.

Yeah I guess against fishier opponents that open way too much will stack off their weaker pair hands.

And regs will tend to bluff off their AKs hands.


John was actually closer to what we were thinking. It was some of the others with the unrealistic range of villain has us beat or much tighter than he could be.

All I know is 5NL they seem tighter and usually don't like going out of their comfort zone. So that means you need to often challenge them and make them uncomfortable and play a little looser and make them play :)
 
c9h13no3

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John was actually closer to what we were thinking. It was some of the others with the unrealistic range of villain has us beat or much tighter than he could be.
John's advocating for a call & call most flop bets line. I'm advocating for a 4-bet/call it off line.

His logic is that people will fold often to our 4-bets, and we'll extract more value by keeping them on the hook.

My opinion is that people have a hard time giving up, especially at microstakes, and will call too many 4-bets or stack off too light.

Neither of us are advocating for folding. His might be the more standard line, I'm not convinced it's more profitable.
 
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This thread has been very educational :)

Knowing the meta at those stakes and having a good idea of the opponents range seem to be the deciding factors.
 
Aces2w1n

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John's advocating for a call & call most flop bets line. I'm advocating for a 4-bet/call it off line.

His logic is that people will fold often to our 4-bets, and we'll extract more value by keeping them on the hook.

My opinion is that people have a hard time giving up, especially at microstakes, and will call too many 4-bets or stack off too light.

Neither of us are advocating for folding. His might be the more standard line, I'm not convinced it's more profitable.


Yeah prolly room for both strategies tbh and it all depends on opponents and stack sizes and player tendencies
 
IPlay

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Pretty insightful threads and everyone is kind of right and this is a hand that we have plenty of options on. Like C9 said, only thing we shouldn't do is what you did OP :p

I seriously did a double take when I read HH
 
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i cant see playing it any other way than call pf and c/c flop.

i dont know why bb would have a loose range here in bb... we should have a tight pf range from the sb here...

so unless opp. isnt really thinking im calling pf but not too happy about it.

.....think about hands like 99/TT/AQ in opp.'s shoes.... it makes soooo much sense to keep the limpers in than push marginal equity vs a decent player. I know not everyone thinks in this way.... which is something to discern... bit i tend to give players a benefit of doubt unless they prove o/w...
 
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Well my first post pre game model in CardRunner EV, so take it as it is, a practice run.

Rude model:
1. Villain range: [ TT+(100), AJs+(100), A5s(100), AQo+(100) ]
2. We call flop
3. OTT Villain will bet (pot size AI) all over pairs (35.3%) and all A5s, we call if A does not hit (98%)
4. if villain checks the turn the hands goes to showdown with hand strength EQ

Giving SB the EV +9.37 – which indicates that calling flop (compared to zero ev folding) is indeed correct move. Villain though has 19.63 EV with worse equity, so my feeling probably had some merits but it’s not the deciding factor.

Increasing villains turn bluff shove range slightly {A5s, AKs} the EV goes up to 11.63 bb, given how large the pot is OTT the shove range should be wider than normally in 5NL.
 
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