$5 NLHE Full Ring: Questionable play with 44 UTG

SB ($4.94)
BB ($2.50)
Hero (UTG) ($5.37)
UTG+1 ($2.73)
MP1 ($6.40)
MP2 ($5.36)
CO ($3.22)
Button ($5.14)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4 , 4
Hero bets $0.20, 5 folds, SB calls $0.18, BB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.30, SB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.50) K , 10 , 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.75, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.25) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $1.10, Hero folds

Total pot: $3.25 | Rake: $0.16

SB is 38 / 24 over 21 hands, no notes.
BB is 17 / 4 / 3.9% 3bet, AF 1.1 (17%) with 100% cbet over 246 hands, no notes.

Preflop - I decided to call so I can pull SB in the hand, I have position so if I hit my set I can make it pay off.

Flop - After SB checks and BB bets so weakly, I decide to try and take the pot.

Turn - No way I am ahead here and this guy obviously won't fold unless I massively overbet and possibly even then so I give up.

Opinions?

I check the flop on hands like this. Especially in low stakes and with more than 1 caller preflop

Oh and i fold to a bet on the flop as well. Forgot to mention that

Well BB did fold here, unfortunately SB slowplayed something or really liked the turn. I need to win every 3rd pot here to break even with this move. Question is how often can this work.

Not often enough for this to work, these types of hands your looking to flop a set or pretty much fold unless you get a 235 board or something.

Well I did raise UTG, how come nobody is putting me on AK here superaccounts or what?

LD1977 said:

Question is how often can this work.

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This particular move-almost never. You bet-raised 75c into a pot of 1,75. If you want this move to work you need to raise much more (at least to 1,4-1,75 in this particular spot).
But your bet sizing isn't the only problem here. Much bigger problem is your unnecessary fancy play with completely missed hand and two more players in the pot. If you were heads-up on the flop, this fancy play might even work sometimes, but against two or more opponents, rarely. Opponents usually make this small bet when they miss their hand, or they are on some kind of draw, so your small raise still gives them good odds to chase.
When you hold small pair like 44, your only objective is to open the pot and to try to catch a set, and if that doesn't happen, you are pretty much done with your hand, just muck it, no need for fancy play. This will save you a lot of money in the long run.

LD1977 said:

Well I did raise UTG, how come nobody is putting me on AK here superaccounts or what?

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You're playing 5NL, stop trying to level your opponents. Don't raise 5x UTG w/ a small pair, you're just going to get yourself in trouble OOP every time you don't hit your set. After you flat the 3 bet, BB's range is so much stronger than yours. Raising here is just so unprofitable and you put yourself in super marginal situations if he flats and checks to you on the turn. I'm fine with the preflop call to set mine but you should be tossing your hand on almost any flop with no 4.

I am raising 4x UTG with everything so sizing is not the problem. Now, what range exactly I am raising from UTG and which pairs go there is possibly debatable.

Raise sizing, well, I kind of automatically raise 3x which is probably not so great here.

Fold pre.

I would just limp pre

Well I sometimes do limp small PPs but sometimes I raise, depending on the table.

I don't think there is a huge difference as far as investment goes (if I limp most often someone raises), but if I raise I get initiative and it helps if the board is A high and nobody hits a set

jsh169 said:

Not often enough for this to work, these types of hands your looking to flop a set or pretty much fold unless you get a 235 board or something.

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Ditto.
When we bluff, we want to do it with equity, preferably not multiway, not vs a fish and not vs a super passive players c-bet/3bet.
Underpairs make rubbish bluffs, hence why we setmine hands like 44.

Damn, I thought this wasn't so horrible so regardless of their perceived weakness, just fold and forget it?

Is there any case (player type) where this could work?

Not in a penny game

Duly noted.

1) Is it better to limp 22-66 (77?) UTG (assuming someone pretty much always raises anyway) or raise? I think raising makes it easier to get value if I flop a set.
2) If I raise, do I ever cbet if I don't flop a set? Lets say A92 rainbow flop?

LD1977 said:

Duly noted.

1) Is it better to limp 22-66 (77?) UTG (assuming someone pretty much always raises anyway) or raise? I think raising makes it easier to get value if I flop a set.
2) If I raise, do I ever cbet if I don't flop a set? Lets say A92 rainbow flop?

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1)No never open limp. UTG I usually fold 66-22 unless there's a fish in the blinds.

2) Yes some flops require even our equity-less hands to c-bet we get folds so often. I can't answer your question specifically as it depends on the range of the person who calls us, it could be a fish on the button or a nit from UTG+1, different ranges hit and miss different flops.

1) Excellent, thanks. My results with small pocket pairs from EP are really not great although to be fair I got coolered when flopping sets a few times. Maybe it is "by design" since people setmine vs EP opens and if we both hit my set is usually lower.

In any case initiative on fishy tables counts for exactly nothing anyway so yeah.

2) Understood. I always get a lot of folds when flop is A high or K high unless it is really wet.

Deco said:

1)No never open limp. UTG I usually fold 66-22 unless there's a fish in the blinds.

2) Yes some flops require even our equity-less hands to c-bet we get folds so often. I can't answer your question specifically as it depends on the range of the person who calls us, it could be a fish on the button or a nit from UTG+1, different ranges hit and miss different flops.

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Why is it a lot of people say to fold the small pocket pairs in early position? Is it because of how much you lose when someone flops the better set?

Think it depends on stack sizes. Because you don't hit your set too often (1:8.5), you really need to get paid off when you do, I like to see the other guy with 50bb+ to make it worth my while. So most often your OOP and gotta fold to scary flops...

LD1977 said:

Well I did raise UTG, how come nobody is putting me on AK here

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Because this is 5NL and nobody is putting you on jack shit.

AugustWest said:

Think it depends on stack sizes. Because you don't hit your set too often (1:8.5), you really need to get paid off when you do, I like to see the other guy with 50bb+ to make it worth my while. So most often your OOP and gotta fold to scary flops...

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Thanks for the clarification

LD1977 said:

Duly noted.

1) Is it better to limp 22-66 (77?) UTG (assuming someone pretty much always raises anyway) or raise? I think raising makes it easier to get value if I flop a set.
2) If I raise, do I ever cbet if I don't flop a set? Lets say A92 rainbow flop?

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Blackrain, in his book, makes a good case for limping the small pairs in early position at 2nl and 5nl. That said, even he admits that they are very small winners from these spots. Mainly because you're out of position, so even when you hit it's hard to maximize your profit from them. There's nothing wrong with folding them.

If you raise, you might c-bet if you have one caller from the blinds. If you are multi-way or out of position, just check/fold. It's weak, but it's also a cheaper mistake than trying to buy a pot that can't be bought.

Now, I will sometimes limp these pairs (shhh, don't tell anyone) against a clueless and over-aggressive opponent. I know if I don't put in a raise pre-flop he will. I also know that I don't want to have to fold to a c-bet. And, if I am doing this, I know the most likely opponent is over-aggressive post-flop as well. He's also going to be deep-stacked (at least 100xbb pref. more) and willing to put a lot of money in the pot if he thinks it can be bought. It's very rare to find that special person. But, when you do, it's magic.

thanks, I have stopped raising small PPs as a result of this thread but still don't like folding them 'cause sets do get paid. Will see how it went after a while.