$5 NLHE Full Ring: Optimal play for flopping a set after a PF raise?

KerouacsDog

KerouacsDog

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$5 NL HE Full Ring: Optimal play for flopping a set after a PF raise?

This hand came up earlier, and I realised that on that flop I play it different(most times) depending on what stake/level I'm at when it happens, 25nl I'm betting that flop 3/4 pot, 10nl maybe 1/2 pot, and this is how I played this at 5nl. Am I losing value?, I was keeping the bets low to try to induce a raise, hoping he had the Q(which he did), weaker set, etc, how would you play this?
No HUD, so no stats, this was about my 10th hand at the table, so no reads on the guy.
I realise I lost value by not betting on the flop, as he would call with the Q, but my small turn bet was made to look like I had AK/AJ small pair and had mostly missed the flop and was now trying to win it on the turn by betting.
Your views?
(please don't tell me don't play with SSers, etc, that kind of thing, that's not my question, just want info on this hand/flop)
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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
MP1: $2.84 (56.8 bb)
MP2: $4.88 (97.6 bb)
MP3: $4.58 (91.6 bb)
Hero (CO): $4.90 (98 bb)
BTN: $2.72 (54.4 bb)
SB: $0.95 (19 bb)
BB: $4.88 (97.6 bb)
UTG+1: $2.73 (54.6 bb)
UTG+2: $5.04 (100.8 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with T♦ A♣
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, BTN calls $0.20, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.52) T♣ T♥ Q♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
Turn: ($0.52) 7♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.15, BTN calls $0.15
River: ($0.82) K♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, BTN calls $0.30
Results: $1.42 pot ($0.09 rake)
Hero showed T♦ A♣ (three of a kind, Tens) and won $1.33 ($0.68 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$0.65 net)
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Technically we flopped trips, not a set. It's an important difference, sets are more hidden than trips.

imo we're overthinking for 5nl. Villain typically isn't trying to determine what Hero's holding is based on bet patterns/bet sizing/etc, he's looking at his own hand and deciding whether it's good enough to continue or not. He'll see the two TT's and decide things are too scary to get aggressive, there's a chance Hero has trips, but there's a chance he doesn't, and I (Villain) have Qx/any pair/two overcards (last is a stretch, but I don't think the first two are), so I'm going to call down.

One of the really nice things about cbets is everyone knows about them, so alot of people don't credit them esp on a paired board. I love cbetting this flop partly for that reason (and partly cuz I cbet at 90%+ at micro).

If Villain thinks this way, the small bet on the turn loses value too imo - no way he's going to bluff/raise unless he's got QQ+, 77, or Tx (in other words, he's only raising for value - and we can pretty much rule out KK+ from pf), but he'll probably call 1/2 to 2/3 psb. If he calls that betsize on the turn, I'll feel comfortable w a larger river bet as well.

As soon as I see the flop, esp against a halfstack, I'm going to be trying to figure out how to get his stack in. $0.30 flop (I usually cbet 2/3 psb) makes the pot $1.12 on the turn, $0.65 turn makes the pot $2.42 on the river, allowing a river shove a possible bet Villain will call. The first two bets aren't all that dangerous looking to Villain, standard sizing (this is an advantage against halfstacks imo).
 
Steveg1976

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KerouacsDog said:
...I realise I lost value by not betting on the flop, as he would call with the Q, but my small turn bet was made to look like I had AK/AJ small pair and had mostly missed the flop and was now trying to win it on the turn by betting.
Your views?...
Click to expand...

Villians at those stakes don't put opponents on hands typically. You are way over thinking it if you think you opponents have any idea what your betting means.
 
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matt20

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Personally I would be out because there are so many worse hands you can be called with here Qx flush draws and straight draws. Like everyone else is saying opponents at this level with have a hard time interpreting what your bet sizing means and usually will not give you credit for trips anyways.
 
WVHillbilly

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Flopped trips and won the minimum.

If you bet it, they will call.
 
KerouacsDog

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slycbnew said:
Technically we flopped trips, not a set. It's an important difference, sets are more hidden than trips.

imo we're overthinking for 5nl. Villain typically isn't trying to determine what Hero's holding is based on bet patterns/bet sizing/etc, he's looking at his own hand and deciding whether it's good enough to continue or not. He'll see the two TT's and decide things are too scary to get aggressive, there's a chance Hero has trips, but there's a chance he doesn't, and I (Villain) have Qx/any pair/two overcards (last is a stretch, but I don't think the first two are), so I'm going to call down.

One of the really nice things about cbets is everyone knows about them, so alot of people don't credit them esp on a paired board. I love cbetting this flop partly for that reason (and partly cuz I cbet at 90%+ at micro).

If Villain thinks this way, the small bet on the turn loses value too imo - no way he's going to bluff/raise unless he's got QQ+, 77, or Tx (in other words, he's only raising for value - and we can pretty much rule out KK+ from pf), but he'll probably call 1/2 to 2/3 psb. If he calls that betsize on the turn, I'll feel comfortable w a larger river bet as well.

As soon as I see the flop, esp against a halfstack, I'm going to be trying to figure out how to get his stack in. $0.30 flop (I usually cbet 2/3 psb) makes the pot $1.12 on the turn, $0.65 turn makes the pot $2.42 on the river, allowing a river shove a possible bet Villain will call. The first two bets aren't all that dangerous looking to Villain, standard sizing (this is an advantage against halfstacks imo).
Click to expand...
yeah, was in a rush to post this, I meant trips, lol. Ty for the excellent reply sly, I guess I did over-analyse this hand, trying to think what he was thinking etc, I'm kinda used to higher levels but like 5nl for multi-tabling practice.
I guess at this level I should be c-betting this and like you say, trying to get his stack all-in by the river. Thanks for advice.
Steveg1976 said:
Villians at those stakes don't put opponents on hands typically. You are way over thinking it if you think you opponents have any idea what your betting means.
Click to expand...
yeah that's real good advice bud, as I said to sly I think I did over-think it, guess I just need to bet this flop and hope he caught some kind of piece of it and will come along with me.

matt20 said:
Personally I would be out because there are so many worse hands you can be called with here Qx flush draws and straight draws. Like everyone else is saying opponents at this level with have a hard time interpreting what your bet sizing means and usually will not give you credit for trips anyways.
Click to expand...
Yet more good advice thanks bud. If they catch anything on the flop, most of the poor players at this level come along for the ride.

WVHillbilly said:
Flopped trips and won the minimum.

If you bet it, they will call.
Click to expand...
Lolz, so true, they do love to call a lot!

Just had a real nice session at 5nl, played for under an hour, on 3 tables, one was deepstack, and just played ABC poker, no fancy play, just some positional bluffing if I thought I could get away with it.
134 hands, $6.86 up(15 points nearer to clearing current bonus as well), and really no tricky hands, no bad beats either, just getting it all-in good(and that's all we can hope for, I guess) each time.
Added bonus was that i had some notes on some of the players from previous sessions, quite acurate notes as well, people seem not to change gears at this level.
Can't wait till I get my HUD to hopefully improve my game further.

Thanks guys for advice!
 
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