$5 NLHE Full Ring: Open ended straight draw plus overpair facing aggression

pokerman27

pokerman27

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Villian is 11/6 over a small sample (250 hands) have seen him showdown only a couple times with big pairs. When villain leads the flop like this I rarely put him on a made hand and with the number of outs I have to improve plus possibly having the best hand already I decide to float the flop and reevaluate the turn. I don't put him on an overpair at this stage as with KK, AA I would expect 4-bet OOP - QQ is a posssibility but JQ I think is only a small part of his range.

When he bets the turn I believe his range is polarised to hands that have me crushed (AA, KK, TT, QQ, 99, 88, JQ) and bluffs with something like AK.

What shoud my move be here on this turn and should I have maybe rasied the flop?


full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1149327
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
SB: $4.88
BB: $4.86
UTG: $7.56
UTG+1: $3.27
UTG+2: $6.58
MP1: $2.66
MP2: $0.35
Hero (CO): $5.00
BTN: $6.45
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO with J J
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.10, UTG+2 raises to $0.35, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.35, 2 folds, BB calls $0.30, 1 fold
Flop: ($1.17) T 9 8 (3 players)
BB bets $0.70, UTG+2 folds, Hero requests TIME, Hero calls $0.70
Turn: ($2.57) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $1.60, Hero requests TIME, Hero ???
 
pokerman27

pokerman27

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Why call the 3-bet?

Because I have position, the stacks are deep and I likely have the best hand....the 3 bet preflop was a 3 bet of UTG+1's min bet which he was doing nearly every hand and folding - I would have 3 bet if the action following his raise had folded to me.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Your thinking is wrong, it's a 3-way pot that nit is going to bluff about never. He has maybe QQ but doubt it, sets, any 2 pairs, straights etc. So floating the flop is fine on the turn...it's hard to say, you could continue if you thought he'll pay you off enough when you hit a straight since his range is strong. On the other hand you could be drawing dead, and he's a nit, so it's a close fold for me. Of course give up unless a straight gets there.
 
bgomez89

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hang on can you explain again why you flatted the 3bet? Mainly the deep stack part and the UTG+1 guy.
 
pokerman27

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hang on can you explain again why you flatted the 3bet? Mainly the deep stack part and the UTG+1 guy.

Sure. I'm effectively set mining with my jacks here. If I hit a set I figure I can get paid off especially if UTG+1 comes along (unlikely that he will).

UTG+1 was min raising almost every hand and folding to 3-bets (this was starting to get picked up on). I don't put UTG+2 on a narrow 3-bet range here as I think he's isoltaing the UTG+1 raiser and will do this fairly wide. I figure I call and see if I can hit a jack and give up. The reason the hand become more interesting is because of BBs actions and the board texture.
 
pokerman27

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Do you understand how these two make your plan for the hand seem totally out of whack?

are you saying if I hit my set I won't get paid as the 3 better is isolataing light? If so what should I do?
 
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c9h13no3

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are you saying if I hit my set I won't get paid as the 3 better is isolataing light? If so what should I do?
A) No one at 5NL knows what isolating light is.

B) Yes, if your opponent has a wide range, he's not going to stack it very often when you make a set. The ~13:1 implied odds you're getting aren't going to cover the cost of seeing the flop.

You can't just fit/fold this for set value. If you're going to play it, I like 4-betting it. But since you're in position, I suppose a call isn't crazy bad. But you have to play it for over pair value as well.
 
pokerman27

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A) No one at 5NL knows what isolating light is.

B) Yes, if your opponent has a wide range, he's not going to stack it very often when you make a set. The ~13:1 implied odds you're getting aren't going to cover the cost of seeing the flop.

You can't just fit/fold this for set value. If you're going to play it, I like 4-betting it. But since you're in position, I suppose a call isn't crazy bad. But you have to play it for over pair value as well.

But do points A and B here not contradict each other? If he doesn't know what isolating light is then we must assume his 3 bet range to be the standard premium hands so there is implied value to set mining as he may get it all-in on the flop with his overpair if I hit a set.

I'm confused here.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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But do points A and B here not contradict each other?
Yes they do. I'm just pointing out flaws in your logic.

You can either set mine against a tight range, or 4-bet/call & play for overpair value against a wide one. You need to know which you're doing.

Making sure you did the right thing in this hand isn't as important as having the right logic behind your plays. Also, 100bb stacks isn't deep.
 
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-----bryce

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no i wouldve reraised the flop to see where i was at. no reason to float it because a number of cards can come out to make u way behind. he likey has two pair or an over pair he. obv he isnt bluffing but he could have a hand like q 10 or k10
 
pokerman27

pokerman27

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Yes they do. I'm just pointing out flaws in your logic.

You can either set mine against a tight range, or 4-bet/call & play for overpair value against a wide one. You need to know which you're doing.

Making sure you did the right thing in this hand isn't as important as having the right logic behind your plays. Also, 100bb stacks isn't deep.

Ok I get you now. So believing his range here to be wide my thinking should have been to 4 bet for value. In doing this presumably I am looking for a preflop fold or flop check fold?

As for the stack sizes - surely 100bbs is deep enough to set mine if I thought the opposite and that his range was narrow.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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As for the stack sizes - surely 100bbs is deep enough to set mine if I thought the opposite and that his range was narrow.
General rule is don't set mine in 3-bet pots 100bb's deep. Since the 3-bet was small, we're getting 13:1 implied odds here. Exactly how much implied odds you need in order to make set mining profitable is debatable. I've seen numbers as low as 12:1 on 2+2, and Dan Harrington is more in the 20:1 range. I personally am more on the 20:1 side, and set mining in 3-bet pots just isn't profitable.

And if you 4-bet JJ, you're not turning it into a bluff. You're saying that his 3-betting range is wide enough that you can 4-bet/stack off with the hand. If we get called, we'll hit roughly 55%-60% of flops, and we'll usually have *something* to play a flop with.
 
pokerman27

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And if you 4-bet JJ, you're not turning it into a bluff. You're saying that his 3-betting range is wide enough that you can 4-bet/stack off with the hand. If we get called, we'll hit roughly 55%-60% of flops, and we'll usually have *something* to play a flop with.

Would you mind expanding on this a little, pls?
 
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