$5 NLHE Full Ring: OOP with TPTK against a fish on unicolor board

LD1977

LD1977

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Button ($4.32)
SB ($2.55)
BB ($1.75)
Hero (UTG) ($5.98)
UTG+1 ($3.50)
MP1 ($3.67)
MP2 ($4.01)
CO ($5.58)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K
club.gif
, A
spade.gif

Hero bets $0.20, UTG+1 calls $0.20, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, 1 fold, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.87) A
heart.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, 3
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(4 players)
Hero bets $0.43, 2 folds, Button calls $0.43

Turn: ($1.73) 8
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.86, Button calls $0.86

River: ($3.45) 7
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

Total pot: $6.05 | Rake: $0.30

BTN is 43 / 7 / 3.1% 3bet over 1.7k hands where he is losing at quite astonishing -22.3 bb/100 clip.

Notes:
- Station, calls 3 barrels OOP with TPMK against the PFR.
- 3bets TT and calls cold 4bet shove.
- Raises QQ and calls a 3bet and on an unicolor flop (without a FD!) calls check raise AI from the 3bettor (!!!).
- Donk bet river = nuts
- 3bet + checkraise = KK

So, after flop call he likely either has a flush or is drawing to it. There is a chance he has some kind of Ace and is married to it (2 pairs are all included in his range).

My plan is to barrel twice and check river if FD doesn't arrive (since 90% of people bluff broken draws there) to get max value from flush draws. Downside is that if he has a flush I am dead but thinking about combos says he has many more draws and Aces (unfortunately, some 2 pairs there) than made flushes.

1. Line check?

Results below:
Button had 8
heart.gif
, K
heart.gif
(flush, Ace high).
Hero had K
club.gif
, A
spade.gif
(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Button won $5.75
 
Last edited:
TakMits

TakMits

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i think you play the hand fine i would have followed tha same line bet bet x/c
 
Aleksei

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Against a station I might go bomb bomb b/f river, but this was actually a pretty smart line here. I'll keep it in mind. :)
 
R

RamdeeBen

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I think given the board texture; how many are in the pot and you being OOP for the rest of the hand you really need to be betting at least 3/4 pot, most likely near pot sized on flop/turn.

Also, given villians x/c range and his [passive nature, it seems like an obvious value bet on the river from him..I think it's an easy fold. It's very unlikely he's value betting worse Ax in this spot.
 
LD1977

LD1977

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I didn't think betting bigger really accomplishes much since any good made hands (2 pairs+, flushes, flopped wheels) and bigger flush draws won't fold. If I can't get strong stuff to fold, then I actually want to keep weaker stuff in but charge it for it.

As for the river, I don't expect bets from Aces but from busted draws and flopped flushes. There are more of the former than the latter, no?

As for lost value from Aces, well, I am not sure they really call 3rd barrel here even if he is a station.

Not saying this reasoning is sound but there was a thought process going on :D
 
B

baudib1

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In a 4-way pot, I just give up on this hand. I'm never putting half my stack in on this board texture.

you really need to be betting at least 3/4 pot, most likely near pot sized on flop/turn.

If we must bet I'd bet less, not more.
 
Aleksei

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In a 4-way pot, I just give up on this hand. I'm never putting half my stack in on this board texture.
Well we're up against 3 awful stations so off the bat we have like 40%-ish. Once we eliminate the total air and one or two people fold we will usually still be good, so a small bet for thin value is good.

Once two people fold and this guy (whom we know will stick around with way way worse) calls, we can go to town on his ass.
 
jolubman

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He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Fold
 
John A

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I didn't think betting bigger really accomplishes much since any good made hands (2 pairs+, flushes, flopped wheels) and bigger flush draws won't fold. If I can't get strong stuff to fold, then I actually want to keep weaker stuff in but charge it for it.

As for the river, I don't expect bets from Aces but from busted draws and flopped flushes. There are more of the former than the latter, no?

As for lost value from Aces, well, I am not sure they really call 3rd barrel here even if he is a station.

Not saying this reasoning is sound but there was a thought process going on :D

I've seen you say this a lot in your posts. You're missing a lot of value with your small bet sizing. The fact is that out of that range you mentioned, the most likely hands percentage wise are top pair, flush draw, middle pair, pair + draw. So against a station that isn't going to fold that range, you want to bet LARGER and charge them to continue with their weaker hand. I think you're thinking about this too linear, like he will continue only with X worse made hands, and Y hands that beat me and that's not entirely correct. When you break X and Y ranges up, X ranges will be a much larger percentage of the hands that will continue than Y range. So right now you're missing a ton of value.

Also, against donks, unless you have reason to believe they will bluff the river after you've bet two streets you're better off bet/folding the river then allowing them to check behind. I don't see anything here that would make me believe he would bluff the river. Also, he may bet top pair, but not the sizing you want, so you also control the size you're paid if you bet.
 
Aleksei

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I've seen you say this a lot in your posts. You're missing a lot of value with your small bet sizing. The fact is that out of that range you mentioned, the most likely hands percentage wise are top pair, flush draw, middle pair, pair + draw. So against a station that isn't going to fold that range, you want to bet LARGER and charge them to continue with their weaker hand. I think you're thinking about this too linear, like he will continue only with X worse made hands, and Y hands that beat me and that's not entirely correct. When you break X and Y ranges up, X ranges will be a much larger percentage of the hands that will continue than Y range. So right now you're missing a ton of value.

Also, against donks, unless you have reason to believe they will bluff the river after you've bet two streets you're better off bet/folding the river then allowing them to check behind. I don't see anything here that would make me believe he would bluff the river. Also, he may bet top pair, but not the sizing you want, so you also control the size you're paid if you bet.
All very true vs one opponent (and consequently true on turn/river), but versus 3 (as we were on the flop) the odds of getting coolered are much much bigger; so wouldn't it make more sense to bet flop small so that we give ourselves better odds to get value off the hand in case someone somewhere has something that beats us?
 
Aces2w1n

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I'd have bet the pot on the flop... Any raise or call i'd just shutdown and save my chips.
 
LD1977

LD1977

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John A - Thing is, at first when I started posting hands here everybody was telling me I bet too large (I used to always bet pot vs any draws in 2NL since I thought they will pay it) and am folding out too many hands.

I think I understand what you are saying, but let me interpret it and you say if I got it?

Basically lets say he has 100 weak hand combos and continues with 60 and has 40 strong hand combos and continues with all, the true percentage is 60% of weak hands and 40% of strong ones?

Problem is I am unable to calculate this so quickly while playing :(

As for the river bluff, well, it happens incredibly often and this line is really profitable in 5NL (I can see every hand with this line so I know how often they bet missed draws). If I bet I do get more value from top pairs but lose all value from broken draws unless they decide to spazz out (and that is rare). I think there are more flush draws out there than top pairs with his range?

I am not trying to be contrarian, so if I am missing some important step here please explain :)
 
John A

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All very true vs one opponent (and consequently true on turn/river), but versus 3 (as we were on the flop) the odds of getting coolered are much much bigger; so wouldn't it make more sense to bet flop small so that we give ourselves better odds to get value off the hand in case someone somewhere has something that beats us?

Everything depends on the board texture. Here you have TPTK, and there will be a lot more second best hands calling you than better hands. Also, if you are planning to fold to a raise (I'm not saying this is the best play, I'm saying if this is the reasoning behind betting small - being afraid of being coolered), then you're increasing the % of the time someone will raise with worse and get you to fold when you are crushing their equity.

There will be times to control the pot size because there are too many bluffing outs, your opponent won't pay off with many second best hands, etc... but this isn't one of those times imho.
 
B

baudib1

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Well we're up against 3 awful stations so off the bat we have like 40%-ish. Once we eliminate the total air and one or two people fold we will usually still be good, so a small bet for thin value is good.

Once two people fold and this guy (whom we know will stick around with way way worse) calls, we can go to town on his ass.

First part makes sense. Small bet for thin value is good.

2nd part doesn't really work. It only takes 1 person to have us drawing dead and we're never a huge favorite over anyone unless we have a strong read that the guy is going broke with A8o here.
 
John A

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First part makes sense. Small bet for thin value is good.

2nd part doesn't really work. It only takes 1 person to have us drawing dead and we're never a huge favorite over anyone unless we have a strong read that the guy is going broke with A8o here.

You are either seeing ghosts, or playing PLO way too often against good players.
 
B

baudib1

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And you're stacking off way too much in 4-way pots on this board.
 
J

jsh169

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The way you played this hand is fine, I hate bet/folding the river either.
 
JimmyBrizzy

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Why the 1/2 pot flop c-bet?

I think for 5NL you're missing value w/ the small bets. I'm sure tons of worse Ax combos and shitty draws are coming along.
 
LD1977

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'cause that was the advice I received here? :)
 
Aleksei

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Everything depends on the board texture. Here you have TPTK, and there will be a lot more second best hands calling you than better hands.
There will be overwhelmingly more worse hands that can call us than better hands, which is the only reason I'd stick around this pot against four people. The problem is that with multiple people in pot the odds of someone somewhere having a better hand (against all the worse hands they can have) overlaps with other odds so that our hand is not actually a significant favorite at all (as mentioned, against four really wide ranges, and accounting for all the air, we're still a slight dog).

Also, if you are planning to fold to a raise (I'm not saying this is the best play, I'm saying if this is the reasoning behind betting small - being afraid of being coolered), then you're increasing the % of the time someone will raise with worse and get you to fold when you are crushing their equity.
Well... if someone raises this board I do have to decide why they're raising (which I can't really say here because I only have stats for one villain). In a four way pot a raise is usually a bad bluff by a retarded lag (because, well, trying to bluff-raise into three people is almost always retarded, as attested by someone who used to attempt it repeatedly :D), or the nuts. Unless villain is a bad lag (which is normally obvious), I will usually fold to a raise because this board texture is so terrifying in a four-way pot with TPTK; but in my experience raises in four-way pots are relatively rare outside of tough super-laggy full ring games.

There will be times to control the pot size because there are too many bluffing outs, your opponent won't pay off with many second best hands, etc... but this isn't one of those times imho.
My sizing here is more about pot odds than pot control. I usually expect to get called but because multiway the odds of having the second-best hand, even against wide ranges, is so high; I want to give myself good odds to profit from the hand. I also don't lose a great amount of fold equity with a smaller size because people are playing more inelastic ranges in multiway pots (basically they will continue if they're good and fold otherwise -- rarely will anyone but a lagtard raise, because a raise defines their range to be so strong in this spot and they nevertheless get so little FE from it; and then of course the kind of passive fish that get into multiway pots often won't raise without the nuts period).
 
LD1977

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Interestingly last night I read about elastic and inelastic ranges and have to say what Aleksei says about them makes a lot of sense and seems to be what is actually happening in hands I play.
 
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