$5 NLHE Full Ring: KK vs. A high board

LD1977

LD1977

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CO: $5.00
BTN: $2.33
SB: $4.50
Hero (BB): $5.36
UTG: $3.45
UTG+1: $2.59
MP1: $6.13
MP2: $5.04

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with K :spade: K :diamond:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.52) 5 :spade: 2 :club: A :heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.52, UTG+1 calls $0.52

Turn: ($1.56) A :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.18, Hero raises to $0.70, UTG+1 calls $0.52

River: ($2.96) 9 :heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.96, UTG+1 calls $1.12 all in

The guy is a 49 / 0 / 2.1 (over 48 hands) fish.

Anyways, I am putting him on an Ace after he calls the flop, but seeing the puny turn bet I change it to a random PP (especially since 2 Aces on board reduce chance he holds one) so river bet is for value.

1. Correct?
 
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themosthigh

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I don't like how you played this hand. Why did you come out firing the pot on the flop?
 
LD1977

LD1977

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Habit :D also, some players (but probably not this one) would fold Axs that missed the flop since they are outkicked if I have AK.
 
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themosthigh

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A short stack isn't folding his ace when he hits one. I check the flop and see if he checks behind. If he does, I bet the turn. If he fires flop I'll prob call and reevalute the turn.
 
WVHillbilly

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What exactly are you trying to accomplish raising the turn?
 
John A

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Why the large flop bet sizing?

Bet weak and try to keep him in with a 5, mid pairs, and some low gutters. The turn, I assume you know now that's not a great plan.
 
LD1977

LD1977

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What exactly are you trying to accomplish raising the turn?

Get his entire stack? Assumption is he doesn't fold any PP.

The guy bets 0.18 into 1.56 pot, I consider that as a check.
 
acky100

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I check the flop, pot bet is probably the worst thing you could of done, you have a bluff catcher on the turn, so bluff catch!

I got a feeling you are the type of guy to get too attached to big hands (this hand would prove so)

Maybe there is a leak for you to consider
 
LD1977

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Possibly. I do cbet a lot though and my range is pretty Ace-heavy so betting flop is automatic. As for sizing, I tend to vary between half pot and pot, trying to see what works and what does not.

Do people on higher levels really check this flop with KK? Seems kind of weak, no?

He looks like exactly the type of guy who is going to the wire with any pocket pair and if I understand combos he has more pocket pairs than Aces? So I decided to milk him and not wait for a bet (why would he bluff?).
 
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WVHillbilly

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Not cbetting KK here should be standard against almost all villains. It has nothing to do with looking weak or strong. It's just about maximizing value /minimizing loss.
 
JOEBOB69

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Not cbetting KK here should be standard against almost all villains. It has nothing to do with looking weak or strong. It's just about maximizing value /minimizing loss.

It would be a good time for you to talk about WAWB. Or link to a thread.
 
WVHillbilly

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We had this same discussion very recently and I'm pretty sure LD was involved in that thread as well.
 
LD1977

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I don't fully understand the math behind it. I assume after we check we fold to any aggression?

If nobody holds an Ace, Ace falls on the flop 4/50 times, so once every 12.5 hands. If someone has it, then the odds are 3/50 or every 17 hands.

So basically we just scratch those hands altogether and just play the rest?

P.S. Yes we did talk about it and I can't grasp the logic. Same happens with QQ/JJ, do we always just give up on these flops when overcards come? Not to mention all smaller pairs, it gets horrible the lower we go.
 
JOEBOB69

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KK on a Axx flop is either way ahead or way behind. If you Cbet you run out all the hands you crush,keeping in the hands that crush you.
 
LD1977

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OK, does this rule apply for all pairs? If yes, it seems like a whole lot of checking going on there.

Also, what if the flop is something like A89 with a FD? Giving free cards sucks even if nobody has an Ace.
 
WVHillbilly

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I don't fully understand the math behind it. I assume after we check we fold to any aggression?

If nobody holds an Ace, Ace falls on the flop 4/50 times, so once every 12.5 hands. If someone has it, then the odds are 3/50 or every 17 hands.

So basically we just scratch those hands altogether and just play the rest?

P.S. Yes we did talk about it and I can't grasp the logic. Same happens with QQ/JJ, do we always just give up on these flops when overcards come? Not to mention all smaller pairs, it gets horrible the lower we go.

I never said you should give up to aggression every time. I just said you'll make more money checking rather than betting.
 
LD1977

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What about wet flops (example in previous post)?
 
JOEBOB69

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Naturally with a wet flop (villain,preflop action etc. depented),there is going to be more draws in villains range. So it can widden your value range up.
 
LD1977

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So, do I bet then or not? Ace high flop says no, but draws say yes.
 
WVHillbilly

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This hand is not a drawy flop in any realistic way.
 
JOEBOB69

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OK, does this rule apply for all pairs? If yes, it seems like a whole lot of checking going on there.

Also, what if the flop is something like A89 with a FD? Giving free cards sucks even if nobody has an Ace.
Theory might be better in the Micro Stakes thread.

Naturally with a wet flop (villain,preflop action etc. depented),there is going to be more draws in villains range. So it can widden your value range up.

So, do I bet then or not? Ace high flop says no, but draws say yes.
 
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What draws? Drawing to a set? Gutshot straight with 4x 3x?

Flop is dry enough that you shouldn't go full pot there in a wa/wb spot. You have the right idea behind the bet itself although I wouldn't argue with anyone who contends a flop check has more expected value in a vacuum (since it's 5NL and villain is a fish).

Turn play / sizing etc I'm still trying to wrap my head around. It appears you're now using the same rationale by raising such a small amount and leaving him with like 1/3 pot or w/e otr that would've served you quite well on the flop... but by getting past that street his range has already narrowed considerably. In regard to your comment about hand combinations, there are many more Ax combos than unimproved pocket pairs a player like this potentially has and this is still true when the second ace peels. I do admire how you're trying for thin value heh so bro fist for that but I mean you're beat quite a bit here when this actually gets to showdown.

River play doesn't really need any comment.
 
runnerx289

runnerx289

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Always checking that flop!
what was your thought behind check raising the turn?
and check-fold the river IMO
 
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