$5 NLHE Full Ring: KK - should I be cbetting here?

J

Jreece18

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888 Poker - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 12.16, PFR: 3.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 670)
MP: 212 BB (VPIP: 94.19, PFR: 24.42, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 86)
MP+1: 80 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
MP+2: 100 BB (VPIP: 19.85, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 137)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BTN: 104.8 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 36)
SB: 106.4 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 10)
Hero (BB): 121.4 BB
UTG: 41.2 BB (VPIP: 5.41, PFR: 2.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:club: K:spade:

fold, fold, MP raises to 2.8 BB, MP+1 calls 2.8 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 13.6 BB, MP calls 10.8 BB, MP+1 calls 10.8 BB

Flop: (41.2 BB, 3 players) 3:spade: T:diamond: A:heart:
Hero bets 20.6 BB

I usually would cbet this in a HU pot, but three way with 2 callers to my 3bet...
 
Aces2w1n

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Question is john.. do we make more money from lower pp checking and thin bet river or bluffing 2 streets against ace rag?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Just give up here, check/fold.
 
ConDeck

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Question is john.. do we make more money from lower pp checking and thin bet river or bluffing 2 streets against ace rag?

You think 5NL fish that are flatting 3bets with A rag are then folding to a double barrel? Risking most/all of your stack in the process? If your doing this it is a HUGE leak.
 
Aces2w1n

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Check check bet to get value from weaker hands

And ur right ax rags are never folding good point.
 
Aces2w1n

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C9 why giveup because we cant just assume Ax is there?

94% is a lot of junk
 
Aces2w1n

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You think 5NL fish that are flatting 3bets with A rag are then folding to a double barrel? Risking most/all of your stack in the process? If your doing this it is a HUGE leak.



I think 94% is much wider and this guy will call us with any piece of this board.
 
ConDeck

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I think 94% is much wider and this guy will call us with any piece of this board.

I half agree, except we also have to worry about MP+1 who doesnt look terribad. How I proceeded HU would depend on AF and notes I think. 3 way I agree check fold to any aggression.
 
Aces2w1n

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I half agree, except we also have to worry about MP+1 who doesnt look terribad. How I proceeded HU would depend on AF and notes I think. 3 way I agree check fold to any aggression.


80BB stack could mean terribad though? definetly not auto topping up so probably a fish.
I don't use AF stat I generally look at the gap between VPIP and PFR to decide how passive they are. Not the most aggressive player looks pretty sticky though.
 
ConDeck

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80BB stack could mean terribad though? definetly not auto topping up so probably a fish.
I don't use AF stat I generally look at the gap between VPIP and PFR to decide how passive they are. Not the most aggressive player looks pretty sticky though.

Not all good players auto top up. Most regs, but that doesn't make him a bad player or a fish. Its an indicator yes, but not a guarantee. We should still use the other info at hand also.

Same with AF, you should use this info when it is on hand. The gap between pfr and vpip do not tell you how aggressive they play postflop. You have the stat, use it. Why attempt to generalise when the info is right there? You can have two players with identical VPIP/PFR but one has an 0.6AF and the other 3.5. Generalising here based on preflop stats when you have the info for post flop aggression is dangerous and could damage your WR substantially.

AF only applies here if I was playing HU though, and this is three way.
 
f1reball

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MP: 212 BB (VPIP: 94.19, PFR: 24.42, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 86)

as an option just shove preflop & wait herocalls from A5s QJs & other *pretty* cards:) u can't cb here, fish never think about your range & give some odds for reg.

80BB stack could mean terribad though? definetly not auto topping up so probably a fish.

80BB could mean auto topup to 80BB & playing for redline.
 
Aces2w1n

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Not all good players auto top up. Most regs, but that doesn't make him a bad player or a fish. Its an indicator yes, but not a guarantee. We should still use the other info at hand also.

Same with AF, you should use this info when it is on hand. The gap between pfr and vpip do not tell you how aggressive they play postflop. You have the stat, use it. Why attempt to generalise when the info is right there? You can have two players with identical VPIP/PFR but one has an 0.6AF and the other 3.5. Generalising here based on preflop stats when you have the info for post flop aggression is dangerous and could damage your WR substantially.

AF only applies here if I was playing HU though, and this is three way.


Split suit said it does... he seems to know an awful lot (gap between vpip and pfr)

Ill add af you do seem to have a point but i didnt want to have too many stats

Thats the fun thing bout poker its all an educated guess even with stats
 
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ConDeck

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Split suit said it does... he seems to know an awful lot (gap between vpip and pfr)

Ill add af you do seem to have a point but i didnt want to have too many stats

Thats the fun thing bout poker its all an educated guess even with stats

Perhaps when I said does not that was not the correct term, what I mean is you can generalise based on VPIP and PFR, but those are generalisations. When you have other information at hand specifically aimed at what you are looking for it is daft to ignore it completely. You do have to remember though that range also has an impact on AF, so two ranges with the same aggression factor arent necessarily equally as aggressive. Aggression Frequency can be more useful I just use AF in general though and also not until I have atleast 100+ hands on villain.

Yeah course it is, but in a game of incomplete information, anything that helps is worth using. It is just important not to go the other way and rely on stats too heavily, as these can always be skewed/not truly representative which can also be costly.
 
Aces2w1n

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Her h i think af will def help in more marginal showdown value spots
 
TimovieMan

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I check/fold here.

If it gets checked through and we see a turn, I might check/call down.
If the turn also gets checked through, I generally bet the river.
 
John A

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Question is john.. do we make more money from lower pp checking and thin bet river or bluffing 2 streets against ace rag?

You make more by making the best play, which is checking, and then betting the turn if no one bets. It's a 3-bet pot. People will play more straight forward, and you don't want to bet into two people OOP here. All is not lost by checking in this spot. You could call one street if the ubber fish bets depending on his aggression levels.
 
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Cheers for the replies. Thoughts on if it went the same way, but heads up?
 
arty220

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I check/fold here.

If it gets checked through and we see a turn, I might check/call down.
If the turn also gets checked through, I generally bet the river.

I would have played the same way.
 
TheBigFinn

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It is a range question. Could the callers have called your 3bet without an Ace big enough to call the CB? Actually I think MP will call with any ace.

In the MP's case easily, he raises~20% of the time preflop, although you have to figure he'll fold some of those. MP-1 is more of a problem. He just called twice after the live player bet and you 3Bet getting 13.6 BB of his 80 BB stack in ~1/5 of his stack. I'd guess he has to be in his top 10%, with a lot of pairs in his range.

If it was just MP you'd be 50/50 against but MP+1 has a ton of Aces in his range plus some trips. You're 60/40 or so against him, so only 25/75 against both of them.

You need to check. My guess is MP raises the turn and you see what MP+1 does. If he calls or pushes you are beat. If he folds you have a decision. You are ~50/50 against MP-1. You need to check the turn and the river stats. Call turn and fold to a bet on the river? I'd check the river down.
 
TheBigFinn

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It is a range question

It is a range question. Could the callers have called your 3bet without an Ace big enough to call the CB? Actually I think MP will call with any ace.

In the MP's case easily, he raises~20% of the time preflop, although you have to figure he'll fold some of those. MP-1 is more of a problem. He just called twice after the live player bet and you 3Bet getting 13.6 BB of his 80 BB stack in ~1/5 of his stack. I'd guess he has to be in his top 10%, with a lot of pairs in his range.

If it was just MP you'd be 50/50 against but MP+1 has a ton of Aces in his range plus some trips. You're 60/40 or so against him, so only 25/75 against both of them.

You need to check. My guess is MP raises the turn and you see what MP+1 does. If he calls or pushes you are beat. If he folds you have a decision. You are ~50/50 against MP-1. You need to check the turn and the river stats. Call turn and fold to a bet on the river? I'd check the river down.
 
fortopyan

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in this situation you must play check/ fold!!! but maybe try bet 1/3 pot for control pot and if opponent 3bet- you fold . your bet was unnecessarily large.
this is my opinion, if someone thinks I'm wrong , please tips: where am I wrong and why?
 
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Cheers for the replies. Thoughts on if it went the same way, but heads up?

Check-call one steet and fold to further aggression. Bet river half-pot for thin value if checked all the way down.
 
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i think in this hand enough 1/3 pot :rolleyes:

1/3 is fine too. Might go a little bigger to get maximum value from QQ/JJ/1010 that can't find the fold button lol. Like what do they hope to see when we check twice on an A high board and get bet into small on the river?

Fwiw we don't really turn our hand face-up if we have a balanced range on this type of flop. I check back medium strength/weak Ax here that aren't folding to two weak barrels, and TPTK (AK) on certain board textures. Super dry A high board, boards that smash my opponents range, boards that disfavor our range, etc. So they can't just start going barrel happy if you balance your range here if anyone is really concerned about it. But I think people who insist on balancing at the micros where the fishies live is pretty lame.
 
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