$5 NLHE Full Ring: KK with an Ace on the flop... and another on the turn!

$5 NL HE Full Ring: KK with an Ace on the flop... and another on the turn!

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($2.30)
Button ($12.15)
SB ($4.52)
BB ($2.66)
UTG ($6.07)
Hero (UTG+1) ($4)
MP1 ($4.57)
MP2 ($9.04)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , K
1 fold, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 3 folds

All standard so far. Some might say bet more but... meh

Flop: ($0.82) J , A , 5 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40

Ok standard pot sized C-bet except this is the 1/4 time that I bet half the pot. ( I usually C-bet half pot when I miss and bet 100% pot 1/4 of the time)
Thus when I hit my bets average 87.5% pot and when I miss they average 62.5% pot)

Turn: ($1.62) A (2 players)
Hero bets $1.15, CO raises to $1.65 (All-In), Hero calls $0.50

The second ace comes and I am OOP so I have to fire the next barrel.... don't I? I get raised but I am getting huge odds.

River: ($4.92) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.92 | Rake: $0.24

Results below:
Hero had K

, K

(two pair, Aces and Kings).
CO had 5

, 5

(full house, fives over Aces).
Outcome: CO won $4.68

Do not post results (even in white).

Do post stats/reads.

Do turn on auto-reload.

After he calls the flop bet, which I'm not a huge fan of but it's not a terrible thing to do OOP, why do you fire again on the turn?

OK OK!

No more results, not even in white

I often don't have stats as I table hop qute a bit to remain in good seats at good tables and even when I do have them I don't know how to retreive them from PT3.

Don't table hop so much. At 5nl they're all good seats unless there are too many shortys.

As for getting stats in PT3, just replay the hand and make sure that show HUD is checked. The stats will overlay just like they do in game.

WVHillbilly said:

Do not post results (even in white).

Do post stats/reads.

Do turn on auto-reload.

After he calls the flop bet, which I'm not a huge fan of but it's not a terrible thing to do OOP, why do you fire again on the turn?

Click to expand...

Interesting. Why would you suggest that I don't bet that flop?

Well when the second ace came I figure that I have to bet. After all there is now less chance of him having an ace and also, if I don't bet then he is certain to and I will be in a position where I have given away the initiative and be calling his bet?

Because it's a WA/WB spot, just OOP. So I often ch/call the flop, especially against more straight-forward opponents because they're not going to keep barreling without the goods if we check again on the turn and river.

Like I said though betting out when OOP is fine, but barreling off your stack is not so good. Even if you bet the turn when the Ace pairs once he calls betting the river (as a bluff) is just throwing money away.

Yes I see that it is a WAWB spot but OOP it just seems better to make the C-bet, than to check and call the bet.
Well I get the impression that you don't hate the C-bet here.

I feel the main issue with the way I played this hand is firing again after the second ace came. I think understanding why this is so bad is what will help me improve my game the most in this situation

I think you may have misread the hand history as he didnt call on the turn but raised me.
FWIW I would not have fired a river bet. I got raised on the turn and was getting like 10:1! Perhaps this was a bad call but I felt commited. In hindsight a shove on the turn would probably been better (Albeit wrong!) as I was destined to call any raise.

Yeah, sorry misread the HH. Still not a fan of betting the turn.

Could you explain why?

Because you're turning your KK into a bluff against most opponents and since we have no stats we have to assume that's what he is.

Ask yourself these 2 questions; How many villains are calling your turn bet with QQ/Jx? How many villains are folding any Ace?

I'd say the answer to both is pretty near zero, so your bet functions neither as a bluff nor a value bet. So why are you betting?

I kinda see where you are coming from. This could be useful if I can put together a strategy to stop me making this mistake in the future. Or better still, understand it so well that it becomes second-nature as auto-folding pocket tens UTG.

...I was joking about the tens!

WVHillbilly said:

I'd say the answer to both is pretty near zero, so your bet functions neither as a bluff nor a value bet. So why are you betting?

Click to expand...

Thinking about it some more it just again seems like a WAWB situation. and I can tell you the main reason why I made the bet...

Because I am OOP and if I don't, he will.

It didn't consciously register at the time but think this is a blocking bet disguised as a second barrel. I HATE to check call. If I checked in this situation then I am putting no more money in but I have KK!

To me the likelyhood of him having an ace is small and I want to get to showdown. I know it is going to cost me matching the rest of his stack but I feel I HAVE to go all the way.

At least betting out gives me some fold equity.

LOL its all academic anyway as he has 55 and a made the house after the turn!

I suppose even if I never find a way to accept that barrelling the turn was wrong there is comfort knowing that he played the hand badly calling my pre-flop raise for an optimistic set mine with barely 10 times its price left in his stack.

Doesn't matter at all what he had.

Also if you think he's likely to bluff a lot, ch/calling is your best option!!!

Why? Because he can bluff with worse but he's not going to call/shove with worse.

Oh yeah and you have zero fold equity against any hand that beats you. A2 calls you here.

Hmmm... thanks for your help on this one but its just not going in. Think I am going to come back to it another time when I am feeling fresher. Its annoying that I cant just accept what I dont understand and just say in future...

"if this happens in this situation then I wont do this, I'll do that instead"

But my questioning nature wont let me!

Thankfully it isnt a scenario that comes up very often

...and there is always the other hand to ponder:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nl-he-full-ring-5-a-182119/

I feel I will have more luck with that one today!

There are some here who don't like c betting wa/wb situations OOP like WV. I however think it's fine(representing the ace isn't bad, it is in your range after all). I'm definitely not betting the turn though because you're pretty much setting yourself up to double him up since hes so short. In wa/wb OOP situations my favorite line to take is cbet flop- check/ call turn(if the bet is 3/4 pot or less, anything higher i probably fold or spew lol)- check/ fold river. I do this because villains will call cbets a lot with middle/ top/ bottom pair or draws and will usually bet the turn when checked to but when called usually will check back river unless they have it

bgomez89 said:

There are some here who don't like c betting wa/wb situations OOP like WV. I however think it's fine(representing the ace isn't bad, it is in your range after all). I'm definitely not betting the turn though because you're pretty much setting yourself up to double him up since hes so short. In wa/wb OOP situations my favorite line to take is cbet flop- check/ call turn(if the bet is 3/4 pot or less, anything higher i probably fold or spew lol)- check/ fold river. I do this because villains will call cbets a lot with middle/ top/ bottom pair or draws and will usually bet the turn when checked to but when called usually will check back river unless they have it

Click to expand...

I think the flop bet is fine against straight forward players (those who don't often float A high flops). I also think ch/calling turn, ch/folding river is fine with normal stacks we really can't do it here because villain is only 50bb deep. If we ch/call the turn we pretty much have to call the river.

So imo in this hand ch/folding > ch/calling > ch/raising > bet/folding > bet/calling on the turn.

WVHillbilly said:

So imo in this hand ch/folding > ch/calling > ch/raising > bet/folding > bet/calling on the turn.

Click to expand...

I agree with check/folding the turn, but then again I'm a bit of a nit. The second ace doesn't change anything as far as being ahead or behind, and if villain saw an ace on the flop and called your cbet regardless, then its obvious hes not too scared of it.

After the cbet, you can't put any more money in without being committed vs this short stack, and in most circumstances I don't think its a good idea to commit with second pair.