$5 NLHE Full Ring: Flopped straight after steal, trouble on river

rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/4/3.2

I'm in the SB w/ a nitty villain who tries to steal from the button. He's 14/4/3.2, ~300 hands, he only steals 14%, cbets 55%, folds vs flop cbet, 80%. No interesting reads.

Merge, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
MP1: $7.96
MP2: $5.85
MP3: $0.50
CO: $3.90
BTN: $7.17
Hero (SB): $4.02
BB: $5.38

Preflop: Hero is SB with A
club.gif
J
heart.gif

4 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, Hero calls $0.10, BB folds
Ok, so possible mistake #1: should I have 3bet? I don't have enough stats on his fold vs resteal (probably bc he steals so infrequently). I know he's got something. I'm thinking I can assigning him a range of { 22+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }.
Flop: ($0.28) K
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T
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Q
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14
Wow, awesome. Broadway! I check, which was probably risky w/ his 50 cebt stat, but happily he fires and I call. (Mistakes #2 & 3 perhpas?) I was thinking that w/ no flushes flush draws out there, it would be safe to flat and let him catch up or bet his pair or his set. At this point I'm guessing he continues w/ all his broadway cards, but not low-medium pocket pairs.
Turn: ($0.56) 4
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.42
, BTN calls $0.42
A blank. Perfect. 3/4 pot bet, a call. Ok I'll take it. He has at least a pair, and maybe we're chopping. But I can't narrow his range down too much, so maybe it's {99+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo} which I'm crushing.
River: ($1.40) 4
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.05, BTN raises to $6.49 and is all-in
A somewhat safe river, I think. So I bet ... and he shoves!.
shocked.gif
Is this a snap call w/ a straight? And perhaps more importantly, did I play this hand too passively preflop and on the flop?​
 
A

Aldito

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Raise the flop big. It hits his nitty range hard. Slowplaying is really one of the biggest leaks you can have in micro stakes poker.
 
ben_rhyno

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/4/3.2

I'm in the SB w/ a nitty villain who tries to steal from the button. He's 14/4/3.2, ~300 hands, he only steals 14%, cbets 55%, folds vs flop cbet, 80%. No interesting reads.

Merge, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
MP1: $7.96
MP2: $5.85
MP3: $0.50
CO: $3.90
BTN: $7.17
Hero (SB): $4.02
BB: $5.38

Preflop: Hero is SB with A
club.gif
J
heart.gif


4 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, Hero calls $0.10, BB folds
Ok, so possible mistake #1: should I have 3bet? I don't have enough stats on his fold vs resteal (probably bc he steals so infrequently). I know he's got something. I'm thinking I can assigning him a range of { 22+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }.​
Flop: ($0.28) K
heart.gif
T
diamond.gif
Q
spade.gif
(2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14
Wow, awesome. Broadway! I check, which was probably risky w/ his 50 cebt stat, but happily he fires and I call. (Mistakes #2 & 3 perhpas?) I was thinking that w/ no flushes flush draws out there, it would be safe to flat and let him catch up or bet his pair or his set. At this point I'm guessing he continues w/ all his broadway cards, but not low-medium pocket pairs.​
Turn: ($0.56) 4
spade.gif
(2 players)

Hero bets $0.42, BTN calls $0.42
A blank. Perfect. 3/4 pot bet, a call. Ok I'll take it. He has at least a pair, and maybe we're chopping. But I can't narrow his range down too much, so maybe it's {99+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo} which I'm crushing.​
River: ($1.40) 4
heart.gif
(2 players)

Hero bets $1.05, BTN raises to $6.49 and is all-in
A somewhat safe river, I think. So I bet ... and he shoves!.
shocked.gif
Is this a snap call w/ a straight? And perhaps more importantly, did I play this hand too passively preflop and on the flop?​
Nitty villain at 14/4 opens up the button, I'd just fold AJo pre. I don't have stove but vs. the range you assigned him you can maybe 3-bet/fold for value. Anyways as played, I can only assume you check the flop to checkraise. The flop hits his range square in the face and you have the nuts. Turn is fine, river is a snap call I think. This looks a little like AA shoving for value vs a perceived flopped 2 pair by you or something like 2 big broadway pairs itself. If he has a boat then GG him but we have the nut straight and I think a set would raise the turn with 2 very obvious draws out.
 
KerouacsDog

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ok, so villain has raised PF, I like your call. Aj is ok to see a flop, I dont like 3betting aginst a nit with AJ. On the flop you should have bet say half-pot at least, if he has caught anything on that flop he'll at least call. Calling his bet is ok, but u shud have bet out. raise is ok as well. nice bet on turn, maybe bet slightly higher? On the river bet is ok, but his shove screams he has a monster hand. Its a hero call from you, fold is possible.
Villain's hand? I say KK/QQ/TT.
 
ben_rhyno

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ok, so villain has raised PF, I like your call. Aj is ok to see a flop, I dont like 3betting aginst a nit with AJ. On the flop you should have bet say half-pot at least, if he has caught anything on that flop he'll at least call. Calling his bet is ok, but u shud have bet out. raise is ok as well. nice bet on turn, maybe bet slightly higher? On the river bet is ok, but his shove screams he has a monster hand. Its a hero call from you, fold is possible.
Villain's hand? I say KK/QQ/TT.
There has to be no way that a set doesn't bet harder on this flop or raise the turn?
 
KerouacsDog

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There has to be no way that a set doesn't bet harder on this flop or raise the turn?

I dont know, if he hit top set on the flop he wants villain to come along, right? he might be scared of the straight, but he only needs board to pair to win. and thats what I think happened on the river. I could be completely wrong, Im only in to my 2nd month of serious ring play.
 
ben_rhyno

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on the turn though, there is open ended broadway and now a flush draw, so I think when hero bets to 42c, villain would surely raise to around 1.20 or so. Betting the flop when checked to and flatting the turn doesn't add up to a set to me. We only have to call $2.29 on the river as we are well covered by villains shove, and have $1.73 invested, I can't see myself folding this river and don't think we should. We are only beaten by combo's of KK,QQ and TT and splitting with AJ, and are ahead of all other value combo's like 2-pair and AK
 
B

baudib1

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nitty micro villains don't turn 1-pair into bluffs.
 
KerouacsDog

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OP, wgat did villain have?
I say KK the most, followed by QQ or JJ and maybe AA.
 
bgomez89

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i think im ok with the call preflop. Against this guy we'd probably want to 3bet a polarized range and AJ just isnt included in that. Like aldito said, c/r that flop!
 
rowhousepd

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Nitty villain at 14/4 opens up the button, I'd just fold AJo pre. I don't have stove but vs. the range you assigned him you can maybe 3-bet/fold for value.

I'm almost exactly 50% vs his range. If I had a few more stats on his fold vs resteals, I might have either folded or 3bet. I don't think it was huge mistake, but prob not ideal either.

In hindsight (and knowing what he had) he probably would have called my 3bet, but if he reraised me I would have folded only having lost maybe 12bb or so. Maybe? I dunno.

There has to be no way that a set doesn't bet harder on this flop or raise the turn?
That was my thinking as well. I figured he'd 3bet my flop w/ anything better than 2 pair.

nitty micro villains don't turn 1-pair into bluffs.
I have learned that the hard way in many a hand.

OP, wgat did villain have?
I say KK the most, followed by QQ or JJ and maybe AA.
I'll give you a hint: I lost the hand.
I'll give you another hint: he didn't have kings or jacks. ;)
 
Stu_Ungar

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/4/3.2

I'm in the SB w/ a nitty villain who tries to steal from the button. He's 14/4/3.2, ~300 hands, he only steals 14%, cbets 55%, folds vs flop cbet, 80%. No interesting reads.

He isnt stealing, he is opening a value range of 14%, you are OOP You do not have enough equity to call.

3bet pre or fold depending on his fold to 3bet %
 
Stu_Ungar

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i think im ok with the call preflop. Against this guy we'd probably want to 3bet a polarized range and AJ just isnt included in that. Like aldito said, c/r that flop!

Trouble with calling is that if you hit an ace, AJ is at the bottom of his ace range, so you cant value bet it, if he calls he beats AJ and he never bluffs.

Infact his BTN range is only slightly wider than many players UTG range, you wouldnt call AJo OOP vs UTG would you, so why is this any different?
 
Last edited:
Stu_Ungar

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Wow, awesome. Broadway! I check, which was probably risky w/ his 50 cebt stat, but happily he fires and I call. (Mistakes #2 & 3 perhpas?) I was thinking that w/ no flushes flush draws out there, it would be safe to flat and let him catch up or bet his pair or his set. At this point I'm guessing he continues w/ all his broadway cards, but not low-medium pocket pairs.

I thought you were thinking "how can I get the least amount of money in the middle with the nuts".

"I could bet, but mmm he might raise that bet, I could check raise, mmm but then he might call.. I know, check calling probably gets the minimum in the middle.. Ill check call"
 
Stu_Ungar

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Flop: ($0.28) K T Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14
Wow, awesome. Broadway! I check, which was probably risky w/ his 50 cebt stat, but happily he fires and I call. (Mistakes #2 & 3 perhpas?) I was thinking that w/ no flushes flush draws out there, it would be safe to flat and let him catch up or bet his pair or his set. At this point I'm guessing he continues w/ all his broadway cards, but not low-medium pocket pairs.
Turn: ($0.56) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.42, BTN calls $0.42
A blank. Perfect. 3/4 pot bet, a call. Ok I'll take it. He has at least a pair, and maybe we're chopping. But I can't narrow his range down too much, so maybe it's {99+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo} which I'm crushing.

So on the flop he folds sets or 2 pair to a bet or raise, but thereafter he stacks off if you flat?

His range hasnt changed between the flop and the turn so why do you feel the need to slowplay the flop?
 
bgomez89

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Trouble with calling is that if you hit an ace, AJ is at the bottom of his ace range, so you cant value bet it, if he calls he beats AJ and he never bluffs.

Infact his BTN range is only slightly wider than many players UTG range, you wouldnt call AJo OOP vs UTG would you, so why is this any different?

I would only be calling preflop, as you know, because I think aj is ahead of his stealing range but doesn't get called by worse if I 3bet. If I happen to hit I think I'd probably just try to keep the pot as small as I could(probably very difficult OOP). Idk, it's btn vs blind, you know people still can raise wide and do stupid shit even if they're nits. I still think he could gave worse aces in his range but I could be wrong
 
Stu_Ungar

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I would only be calling preflop, as you know, because I think aj is ahead of his stealing range but doesn't get called by worse if I 3bet. If I happen to hit I think I'd probably just try to keep the pot as small as I could(probably very difficult OOP). Idk, it's btn vs blind, you know people still can raise wide and do stupid shit even if they're nits. I still think he could gave worse aces in his range but I could be wrong

1.) AJo is not ahead of a 14% range

2.) you need more than 50% equity to call OOP to make up for your positional disadvantage.

3.) please stop using the word steal in relation to this player, 14% is a value range, he isnt stealing he is opening with a very narrow range.

4.) fold / 3bet

5.) "I would only be calling preflop" .... like you hit an ace, he bets and you fold?

6.) "you know people still can raise wide" ... 14% is not wide
 
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bgomez89

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I think I only said steal once lol
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think I only said steal once lol

LOL

TBH I thought you were OP and was trying to make it clear that this guy isnt opening wide enough for it to be considered a steal.

He is value opening and you are obliging him by calling with a hand that dosent do well against his range and doing it OOP.

If you open AQ, TT, KQ etc you want people to call OOP with AJ
 
bgomez89

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stu can you give me the range you put him on? When I type in 14% in stove it says we're flipping(does that mean we'd have the 50% equity we need).
 
Stu_Ungar

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stu can you give me the range you put him on? When I type in 14% in stove it says we're flipping(does that mean we'd have the 50% equity we need).

We need more than 50%

50% means that if we showdown 100% we break even.

50% means that 2 equally skilled opponents will break even.

We are OOP so we expect villain to play the hand better than we will, otherwise whats all this hype about position?

So we need more than 50% equity to play a hand OOP
 
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Aldito

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Congrats on making the FTR digest with this hand OP...

"rowhousepd asks if he plays a hand to passively in our Beginners Circle Forum."
 
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