$5 NLHE Full Ring: Flopped the nuts. What do I do with it?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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SB ($1.88)
BB ($4.90)
UTG ($1.02)
UTG+1 ($2.55)
UTG+2 ($16.72)
MP ($1.55)
Hero/MP+1 ($4.51)
CO ($5.71)
BTN ($1.87)

Preflop:
Hero has :as4: :2s4:

SB posts $0.02
BB posts $0.05
UTG calls
fold
UTG+2 calls
fold
Hero calls
CO folds
SB calls
BB checks


Flop: ($0.25)
:4s4: :qs4: :10s4:

checks through

Turn: ($0.25)
:5d4:

BB bets $0.05
UTG calls
UTG+2 calls
Hero calls
BTN folds

River: ($0.45)
:6c4:

BB checks
UTG bets $0.15
UTG+2 raises to $0.62
Hero raises to $1.09
BB folds
UTG folds
UTG+2 calls



What I think I did wrong:
I should have raised preflop. is $0.15 a good raise size here preflop?
I should have Cbet for thin value on the flop after raising pre and barreled through. lightly though as there are few hands that would call on this board.

I definitely got a nice $1.50 out of it, but I think I could have extracted way more value in this spot.

Flopping the nuts to a beginner is like getting in a lambo when you just learned to drive yesterday. dont know how to use all that power so you become very timid and drive too slow.
 
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J

Jreece18

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Firstly, auto top up to 100bb. Always unless you're short stacking.

I wouldn't play this preflop as beginners tend to overvalue Ax type hands (especially suited). However, if the table is as limp happy as this hand suggests, don't mind limping. If you were to bet, keep it 3bb x 1bb per limper.

Don't mind checking the flop with the nuts, however when you have so many people in the pot (fishes) I wouldn't mind cbetting - it's likely you're gonna get one caller along.

Wouldn't call the turn bet, 5c is the equivalent of a check and you may as well raise to actually get some value out of the hand, once again, you're likely gonna get someone come along.

By the river when you get a bet and a reraise, BET BIGGER. This is the point where villain has caught something, he'll call at least $1.80, easily more. A <2x raise just isn't enough.

Pretty strange hand.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I think as long as you know what you're looking for with the flop then its okay to play Ax suited. Here, I'm looking for straight draw, flush draw, top pair on a dry board, two pair or a set. If I didn't get any of those then I would fold any aggression on the flop with this many players in the hand.
I think A2s flops well enough times to raise pre and continue if in late position if the flop is dry or gives good drawing odds

And thanks. Definitely need to try to get my whole stack in here.. Maybe an over bet on the turn would look like a bluff to one of these guys?
 
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Jreece18

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Flopping a flush draw is like 10%, flopping two pair about 2%. Ace rag isn't a great hand and when it's suited it looks prettier. This is part of the problem with newer players playing it. It looks better than it is.

Flop top pair and you have absolutely no kicker. How far are you going to take that ace and how profitable do you think top pair would be in this situation? Playing to see the flop is pointless when the odds of you hitting anything worth while are so against you. From the button may be different.
 
TimovieMan

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Raise preflop. Limping is ok, but we ideally want the CO and BTN to fold (which they may not do if you overlimp) to get ultimate position. I'm assuming UTG and UTG+2 are fish. 0.25$ is a good size - it's the standard 3xbb +1xbb per limper.

Bet the flop!!!
Lots of hands are calling and you want to build the pot. Don't bet too big - half pot is good. You want to get value in now. If the turn is another spade, it'll kill the action dead and you won't get value out of your nuts. Right now, you can get all kinds of value from anything that hit the board.

Raise the turn. Again, another spade will kill the action while right now, you'll get calls.

Raise bigger on the river. The way UTG+2 played it, I think he either has a set or a worse flush. Going to the felt earlier would've got his stack anyway, imo, and it still might now, so raise bigger than that min-raise.


I should have Cbet for thin value on the flop after raising pre and barreled through.
Your cbet (even a small one) would be for FAT value.

Thin value is when you make a value-bet on the river while in front of the opponent's range, but not by much. Trying to squeeze a couple of extra BBs out of second pairs and worse with a weak top pair, for instance. You're trying to extract value from worse hands, knowing full well that he's never folding a better hand and that you're losing a good % of the time - just not enough for the value bet to not be profitable.
 
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mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Jreece, the extra equity when flush and flush draws do hit is enough to pay for when they don't hit.

Timovieman, I was actually hoping for a spade, I think one of them or even more than one if them would surely have a spade and stack off against me, and it would have been beautiful! Haha.

Thanks for the clarification on fat/thin value. I thought thin was when few hands would call, and I felt like very few hands would actually call against a board like that. I think I had it backwards
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

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Timovieman, I was actually hoping for a spade, I think one of them or even more than one if them would surely have a spade and stack off against me, and it would have been beautiful! Haha.
Who is stacking off on a 4-flush board without the A?
Not even the K is stacking off.
You don't want that fourth spade.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Low level thinkers who don't think I've made the flush already.

UTG+2 had raised the river with 9s9h (for some reason bovada shows this in the hand history viewer after you leave the table) he would have stacked off in a heartbeat if he made the flush.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

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Low level thinkers who don't think I've made the flush already.

UTG+2 had raised the river with 9s9h (for some reason bovada shows this in the hand history viewer after you leave the table) he would have stacked off in a heartbeat if he made the flush.
No, he wouldn't. Even the low-level thinkers are smart enough to realize that any bigger spade has them crushed. When only one card is needed, it takes a very special kind of fish to stack off here.
I'm not saying he'll never do it, just that most won't, and more often than not, the action will be killed dead.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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He had a pair of nines though? He isn't worried about a pair of 10s, or a pair of queens, or the slowplayed flush


Not saying my play was right or anywhere close to optimum. I still think I should have raised pre and continued post, but these players on bovada are seriously that bad.

... Maybe I'm underestimating them.
 
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6bet me

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Firstly, you should top up to 100bb+ so that when you do flop monster hands, you can extract more value from them against the fish / calling stations.

Preflop: limping is okay here, but I prefer to raise to $0.25 and take the initiative.

Flop: You should definitely bet here. I suggest about half pot or maybe even slightly less like $0.10. Just try to add a little bit of value to the pot for now. It will really add up on later streets. Plus there are some draws that can call you (eg. KJ, J9 or any Ksx hand) and also Qx and Tx can call you.

Turn: Again, you should be betting here. Now there are even more draws out there. When you face a $0.05 bet with 2 callers, you should raise to something like $0.25 and let straight draws, top pair hands and single spade hands call you.

River: Honestly, if you're going to raise, then you should raise big (and you should raise here). Raise to at least 3 times the previous bet, so about $1.90 here.

You missed out on a lot of value here. Also, I know that this won't happen very often, but once in a while, the board will pair and you'll get outdrawn to a boat, so you want to be betting/raising not only for value, but also for protection.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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How not to play the nuts.

You tried your best to win the minimum, but they finally decided to bet.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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How not to play the nuts.

You tried your best to win the minimum, but they finally decided to bet.

Lol:D

I think I psyche myself out too much when I get monster hands.
 
Omahahahaha

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bet flop, raise turn, more on river
 
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Jreece18

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Jreece, the extra equity when flush and flush draws do hit is enough to pay for when they don't hit.

Extra equity? This hand could've ended with a 45c pot. Plus I just don't think beginners should be playing Ax or suited connectors when they are starting as they'll over value them and have no idea how to play them from any position. Playing too many hands is a problem when you're learning the fundamentals.

Agree to disagree I guess haha.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I mean if I would have played it right and gotten my value in, the equity would be worth it. The ~98% equity I had on the flop is a pretty nice place to be.
 
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