$5 NLHE Full Ring: Flat call or 3 bet in position?

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LeGenie

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 67/33/0.2

P8(MP) $2.21 - VP:100 PFR:0 AF:1.0 W:33|100 STL: 3B:0| CB:|0 N:0.97 hands:3
P9(LP) $2.88 - VP:67 PFR:33 AF:0.2 W:100|0 STL: 3B: CB:100| N:-1.85 Hands:3
Me(CO) $4.40 - VP:67 PFR:0 AF:Inf. W:50|0 STL: 3B:0| CB:|100 N:-0.75 Hands:3

Pre Flop: Me(CO) with A:club: Q:club:
P6(MP) folds, P7(MP) folds, P8(MP) calls 0.05, P9(LP) raises 0.20, P1(CO) folds, Me(CO) calls 0.20, P3(BTN) folds, P4(SB) folds, P5(BB) folds, P8(MP) calls 0.15


Flop: 9:spade: 3:heart: 9:heart: (3 players)
P8(MP) checks, P9(MP) bets 0.25, Me(CO) folds, P8(MP) calls 0.25


Turn: 6:diamond: (2 players)
P8(MP) bets 0.25, P9(LP) calls 0.25


River: Q:diamond: (2 players)
P8(MP) bets 0.25, P9(LP) calls 0.25
 
T

timoman

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easy muck on the turn i think
 
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josealejocl

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I think the call isn't altogether bad, you don't know him (the stats don't work, you just have 3 hands) and AQs would be a marginal hand to 3bet in this situation.
In other cases, when you have more information of the villain AQ might be a legitimate hand to 3bet, but this is not the case.

After the flop with a pair over the board, a flush draw and having nothing is good to play check/fold.

excuse my english, isn't the best.
 
Figaroo2

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AQ again

Yet another problem hand with AQ! There are lots of grey areas in poker thats why its such a great game, AQ provides plenty of problems as it is borderline strength. You will get different advice from different players, consider all of it, often players of different styles play hands in different ways.
Here you have a limper and a raiser in front of you and as you have only played three hands with them you know very little or nothing of the range of cards they play. (even three hands of knowledge is better than nothing)
If you knew they were loose you could raise with confidence knowing that your equity (chances of winning the hand) is highly likely to be the best.
If you knew they are tight players then 3 betting with AQ is not a good idea unless you know they fold to almost every three bet. (look up the gap concept)
When you have incomplete information on players there is nothing wrong with calling, seeing the flop and taking it from there.
You can try three betting here but you are 'raising in the dark', committing lots of chips at this point with AQ.
The hand did go to the end so you should have been able to see what they played, have a look and see if they might have folded to a 3 bet and use the information against them in the future.
It also depends on what style of play you intend to start off adopting. If you are going to play super aggressive then raise away.
I have often read "You need patience in cash games". Personally here I would build up some knowledge on the players before considering raising with AQ in this spot
 
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LeGenie

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Figaroo2 said:
Yet another problem hand with AQ! There are lots of grey areas in poker thats why its such a great game, AQ provides plenty of problems as it is borderline strength. You will get different advice from different players, consider all of it, often players of different styles play hands in different ways.
Here you have a limper and a raiser in front of you and as you have only played three hands with them you know very little or nothing of the range of cards they play. (even three hands of knowledge is better than nothing)
If you knew they were loose you could raise with confidence knowing that your equity (chances of winning the hand) is highly likely to be the best.
If you knew they are tight players then 3 betting with AQ is not a good idea unless you know they fold to almost every three bet. (look up the gap concept)
When you have incomplete information on players there is nothing wrong with calling, seeing the flop and taking it from there.
You can try three betting here but you are 'raising in the dark', committing lots of chips at this point with AQ.
The hand did go to the end so you should have been able to see what they played, have a look and see if they might have folded to a 3 bet and use the information against them in the future.
It also depends on what style of play you intend to start off adopting. If you are going to play super aggressive then raise away.
I have often read "You need patience in cash games". Personally here I would build up some knowledge on the players before considering raising with AQ in this spot
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I felt like flat calling was the best approach to take given the lack of information I had on the pre-flop raiser and then check folding if I didn't connect with the board.
 
Yoshimiii

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Cba reading that wall of text.

Pre-flop, either calling or raising are fine as raiser looks like a fish, however I would just call as they are both short-stacked anyway and I want to keep other fishy in.
 
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Ambushed

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I would just call in this spot. The raise is pretty big due to the limper, but I think calling is fine due to low stacks.
 
olliejjc16

olliejjc16

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you only have three hands on him, i think against an unknown in full ring its best to call in position and play the flop, less risk that way and its pretty easy to get away from, that said a 3 bet wouldn't be a bad play either to isolate him and take it heads up if possible but personally i would just take the low risk option and call in position
 
John A

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LeGenie said:
Fair enough. I felt like flat calling was the best approach to take given the lack of information I had on the pre-flop raiser and then check folding if I didn't connect with the board.
Click to expand...

You do have information though, he bought in short correct (or hasn't reloaded)? So he's likely a fish. If you had information on the other opponents, and you'd like to keep them in the pot, then calling is ok. Without that info I don't mind 3-betting or flatting. Probably against a half stack, and what is likely a fish I'd 3-bet and look to shove most flops.
 
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Yoshimiii said:
Cba reading that wall of text.

Pre-flop, either calling or raising are fine as raiser looks like a fish, however I would just call as they are both short-stacked anyway and I want to keep other fishy in.
Click to expand...

You mentioned that they were both short-stacked so does that mean that they might be encouraged to shove if I 3 bet to 3x?
 
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LeGenie

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John A said:
You do have information though, he bought in short correct (or hasn't reloaded)? So he's likely a fish. If you had information on the other opponents, and you'd like to keep them in the pot, then calling is ok. Without that info I don't mind 3-betting or flatting. Probably against a half stack, and what is likely a fish I'd 3-bet and look to shove most flops.
Click to expand...

The fact that they are both short-stacked might induce a shove if I 3 bet pre-flop would you agree?
 
Yoshimiii

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LeGenie said:
You mentioned that they were both short-stacked so does that mean that they might be encouraged to shove if I 3 bet to 3x?
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't be 3 bet folding here.
 
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LeGenie

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Yoshimiii said:
Well I wouldn't be 3 bet folding here.
Click to expand...

My equity against villain 9's range is about 35% so if I want to get 2 to 1 on my shove I need to 3 bet to 7x which frankly is a lot in this situation
 
John A

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LeGenie said:
The fact that they are both short-stacked might induce a shove if I 3 bet pre-flop would you agree?
Click to expand...

Yup... and what do short stack fish shove? A lot of worse hands.
 
Aces2w1n

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That flop is quite safe in most cases... A lot of fish could have 2 broadways which you are dominating and worse PP....

Reason why you 3bet here is to induce the fish to shove... Often they will shove with total air in this position, probably out of frustration because you didn't let them control the hand.


Against short stacks as well if they win the hand so be it... You'll get your chips back a lot of the time if they stick around :)
 
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Aces2w1n said:
That flop is quite safe in most cases... A lot of fish could have 2 broadways which you are dominating and worse PP....

Reason why you 3bet here is to induce the fish to shove... Often they will shove with total air in this position, probably out of frustration because you didn't let them control the hand.


Against short stacks as well if they win the hand so be it... You'll get your chips back a lot of the time if they stick around :)
Click to expand...

In order to induce a shove from villain and make it profitable I need to 3 bet to 7x as my equity against villain's range is about 35%. That being said don't you think it's a little too much knowing very well that I can get my money in while in a better spot
 
Yoshimiii

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LeGenie said:
In order to induce a shove from villain and make it profitable I need to 3 bet to 7x as my equity against villain's range is about 35%. That being said don't you think it's a little too much knowing very well that I can get my money in while in a better spot
Click to expand...

Why do you need to 3 bet 7x lol? You can 3 bet alot smaller and still call off as they are fish.
 
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Yoshimiii said:
Why do you need to 3 bet 7x lol? You can 3 bet alot smaller and still call off as they are fish.
Click to expand...

If I 3bet 7x I will then be getting 2 to 1 in the event that I shove so I will break even in the long run and SINCE they are fish then it will be more profitable as they will often call with worse hands
 
Yoshimiii

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LeGenie said:
If I 3bet 7x I will then be getting 2 to 1 in the event that I shove so I will break even in the long run and SINCE they are fish then it will be more profitable as they will often call with worse hands
Click to expand...

No, don't make it $1.4... that will fold out a lot of junk that they would otherwise call with, just because they are fish doesn't mean they are gonna call that much with a hand like 6T.

You can make it $0.6 and still call a shove by the fish.
 
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