$5 NLHE Full Ring: Bottom set on turn, oop, w/ big overcards & draws on board, and lots of betting

rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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$5 NL HE Full Ring: Bottom set on turn, oop, w/ big overcards & draws on board, and lots of betting

I guess my big questions here is how much aggression w/ bottom set is too much when there are flush draws and big overcards on the board? In this hand I was facing new opponents & didn't have any good reads, but the villain seemed like a fairly ABC player (for the micros, that is). Should I have even raised preflop in MP+1 w/ 33 to begin w/? And if so, should I reraise my bottom set on the turn w/ this kind of board?

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL RUSH - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $4.34
Hero (MP+1): $5.27
LP: $5.68
CO: $5.13
BTN: $7.21
SB: $2.50
BB: $6.33
UTG: $0.31
UTG+1: $4.95

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 3
diamond.gif
3
heart.gif

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.15, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.37, 2 players) A
club.gif
3
spade.gif
6
club.gif

Hero bets $0.15, BTN calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67, 2 players) K
spade.gif

Hero bets $0.40, BTN raises to $0.80
Hero....
  • folds, realizing the board is too dangerous, fearing that I'll get beat by a flush or that I'm already crushed by a higher set?
  • calls, thinking that the villain's relatively small raise is suspicious, and hoping the river is safe -- and if it is, I'll shove then?
  • raises, or maybe shoves, hoping villain has TPTK or maybe 2P?
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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I raise to about $2.40 and call if villain goes all-in.

From his betting pattern, with no good reads, villain may hold absolutely anything.
Of all his possible hands, only AA, KK and 66 have us beat but we would like to finish this here and now because of the two possible flush draws.
His reraise on the turn might indicate KK, but also AK, Kx, or a complete bluff with air. He might be holding something like 5s4s and be trying to scare you away from the pot.
This is your chance to take the lead in the game and the odds are definitely in your favor.

Your pre-flop raise was ok, you were in a decent position to steal. You should have bet more on the flop though. You hit what you wanted to hit, but bottom set is still fragile esp. when a flush draw is present. Bet at least 2/3 of the pot.

(This is my first HA post so if someone strongly disagrees, please be nice :D)
 
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c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Pretty much what BigThing said, but I'd shove instead of making a raise to $2.40. A potsized raise is ~$2.60 if my math is right, and we've only got like $4.60 left behind, so we might as well just cram it all in.

Also, don't bet the flop & turn so small.
 
WVHillbilly

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Bigger bets on the flop and turn will allow you to get AI much more naturally.

You can never fold here. With the way he played preflop and post you're only behind 66 and your opponent wants to play for stacks. That's really good for you. Raise, probably should just shove, and expect calls from tons of hands you're crushing.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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I'd shove instead of making a raise to $2.40. A potsized raise is ~$2.60 if my math is right, and we've only got like $4.60 left behind, so we might as well just cram it all in.

I just thought here it might be interesting to learn a bit about this player by leaving some of the action to him when he has unfavorable pot-odds
If he merely calls and I win, I'm still happy because I replaced the chip leader and I just learned he is quite loose and passive. If he calls and I lose, I still got to see his hand and have a stack left which I can still work with.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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I mean I took that position from him, my English is awkward sometimes.
 
ben_rhyno

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I bet bigger on the flop, around 35c, then maybe $1 turn , shove to his reraise, even if he has a flush draw and hits on the river, you have redraws to a full house or quads.
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah, its a cash game... so... there is no chip leader. That's what's really awkward. Your english is fine.

Yeah and if he does hit his flush it matters not that you'll still have chips because you're going to reload to the max (or at least 100bbs) right?
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Yeah, its a cash game... so... there is no chip leader. That's what's really awkward. Your english is fine.

Ah I apologize.
I was under the impression that 'cash game' was the term for a closed table with no rebuys, such as I regularly play with friends.
I should've looked it up properly.
 
rowhousepd

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Well gang, here's how it unfolded....

Turn: ($0.67, 2 players) K
spade.gif

Hero bets $0.40, BTN raises to $0.80, Hero raises to $2.00, BTN raises to $6.91 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.97 and is all-in

River: ($10.61, 2 players) K
diamond.gif


Hero shows 3
diamond.gif
3
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(Full House, Threes full of Kings)
BTN shows A
diamond.gif
K
heart.gif
(Full House, Kings full of Aces)
BTN wins $9.91

I raise to about $2.40 and call if villain goes all-in.
....
Of all his possible hands, only AA, KK and 66 have us beat but we would like to finish this here and now because of the two possible flush draws.
His reraise on the turn might indicate KK, but also AK, Kx...
Nice prediction. That's basically what happened.

Pretty much what BigThing said, but I'd shove instead of making a raise to $2.40. A potsized raise is ~$2.60 if my math is right, and we've only got like $4.60 left behind, so we might as well just cram it all in.
In retrospect, I totally agree. But thing is in all likelihood the villain wouldn't have folded TPTK on the flop to a hefty pot-sized bet. And I kinda doubt that even an all-in opening on the turn would have made him fold top 2P -- I mean, it's the micros after all. ;)

And then of course, if we somehow had gotten to the river w/out his re-raise on the turn and we still had chips, I would have had a very hard time (no, actually an impossible time) folding my smaller full house. I suppose I was doomed either way. But still you're advice is helpful here. Thanks!
 
WVHillbilly

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In retrospect, I totally agree. But thing is in all likelihood the villain wouldn't have folded TPTK on the flop to a hefty pot-sized bet. And I kinda doubt that even an all-in opening on the turn would have made him fold top 2P -- I mean, it's the micros after all. ;)

Exactly why in the **** would you WANT him to fold TPTK or top 2??? I see these type of comments way too often and it's just results oriented BS. You got your $$s in as a HUGE favorite. Nice job.
 
rowhousepd

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Exactly why in the **** would you WANT him to fold TPTK or top 2??? I see these type of comments way too often and it's just results oriented BS. You got your $$s in as a HUGE favorite. Nice job.
I think I was unclear in the way I phrased that. What I meant was if, in retrospect, I could have foreseen me being busted, I couldn't have gotten him to fold ... bc he (like lots of micro players) won't fold on TP or 2P. I know what you mean about results-oriented thinking/complaining, which is often what goes on in tales of bad beats. I realize that shoving, or getting as much $ in as possible, was the correct play. Just sounded like I meant something else. :eek:
 
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