$5 NLHE Full Ring: bad value bet ?

RIBA

RIBA

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$5 NL HE Full Ring: bad value bet ?

no reads like 20 hands in but he did have AA the first hand called 6x raise i minraised AK he reraised all in 50bb
then this hand comes up

pokerstars Game #30503240899: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2009/07/15 18:50:38 ET
Table 'Principia V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: runcerfrun ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: BadBeatsFUll ($5.72 in chips)
Seat 4: AggresssiV ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 5: AnKBG ($5.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Siduk1 ($12.90 in chips)
Seat 7: stas2002 ($1.55 in chips)
Seat 8: AlenaGr ($3.48 in chips)
Seat 9: Kocurrek ($7.38 in chips)
Dannymania89 will be allowed to play after the button
BadBeatsFUll: posts small blind $0.02
AggresssiV: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BadBeatsFUll [Qs Qh]
AnKBG: folds
Siduk1: calls $0.05
stas2002: calls $0.05
AlenaGr: calls $0.05
Kocurrek: raises $0.15 to $0.20
runcerfrun: folds
BadBeatsFUll: raises $0.35 to $0.55
AggresssiV: folds
Siduk1: folds
stas2002: folds
AlenaGr: folds
Kocurrek: calls $0.35
*** FLOP *** [Tc Jc 8h]
BadBeatsFUll: checks
Kocurrek: checks
*** TURN *** [Tc Jc 8h] [9h]
BadBeatsFUll: bets $1.05
Kocurrek: calls $1.05
*** RIVER *** [Tc Jc 8h 9h] [Ts]
BadBeatsFUll: bets $2.05
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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ummmmm, I don't get it?

I'd bet the flop too
 
RIBA

RIBA

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do I check the river or my bet of 2.05 was ok ?
 
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WossaPotOddz

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Check flop, bet turn, check/call river assuming call isn't a shove
 
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MercilessKiller

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The raise pre flop was way too small...

You had 3 callers so there was 0.22 in the pot on your turn to act. You put in 0.20 meaning there was now 0.42 in the pot...

It would be 0.20 for anybody not invested to call knowing that there's many people behind to act (good value for marginal hands), and then when it comes back to the early callers and the BB, it would be 0.15 to call a pot of potentially more than 0.75ish so they'd pretty much have to call if they thought their hand was good enough for an early limp.

You don't want a 5/6 way pot with QQ. I'd be raising there to a minimum of 0.40. You want to make sure if someone does call you, not everyone calls you.

With the line takn, you just called his 3 bet pre flop.. Once again I would recommend putting in a raise. You're out of position here thus you have to act first on the flop. Many times you will see a K, A or a scary board hit and you'll be in a position where you make a play you're not 100% confident about and not sure what's going to happen behind you. If you put in a 4bet you have 2 options.. 1 is stick it to $2 or $2.25 or something, and see what happens.. if he pushes you can then be sure he has the top end of premium hands and you're hand may not seem that great, or if he calls you can be put him strongly on an AK or a TT type hand,... equally if you're confident your hand is above his range for his 3bet, you could simply push pre flop to his 3 bet. In position its a different story as you can control the play post flop a lot easier.

With the line taken, you have to be that flop in my eyes (but I can see why others may recommend checking). You have an over pair and giving away free cards could put you in a horrible position. What if you checked and anything between the 2 and queen of clubs fell on the turn? You've just pretty much given away the pot by not betting the flop and letthing drawers see for free... If you're ahead here (which is likely), you want people to make mistakes by calling bets when they're behind. If they check and hit, you have no one to blame but yourself ;).

You may think this is irellevant, but what I've spoken about above also builds the pot. If you took the line I recommended, the chances are the pot would be big enough to put a good size value bet in and expect a call from people who had hit something!

Now I also refer to Ed Miller for your value bet at the end. The funny thing is, if he's going to call $2, he'll most likely call $3 or even at a push $4.

Without overbetting the river too much, a healthy pot sized bet plus a little would get a call if he was going to call the $2....

If you felt he was going to fold to any sizable bet, then maybe a check is better to induce a bluff....

Just my thoughts :)
 
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Mase31683

Mase31683

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Yeah, I'd definitely be betting this river, you're ahead a lot of the time
 
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MercilessKiller

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Ahhh I made a big error and got you 2 mixed up.. My post still applies though but just different positioning. The 3 bet should have been a lot more too :)
 
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WossaPotOddz

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With the line taken, you have to be that flop in my eyes (but I can see why others may recommend checking).

I agree that you can also bet the flop and with an overpair it's almost automatic but in this scenario I would be opting for a lot of pot control.

The villain has raised and called a 3bet, then the flop is literally the single worst flop you could imagine with the pre-flop action and hero holding QQ. I mean what are we beating that has called?

99 but still has an open-ended straight
22-77 aren't calling a bet on the flop
AK is drawing almost dead, if one of the 2 queens come we're drawing to 10 outs anyway, if the king comes we draw to 8, and if the ace comes then it's no biggie because one of them is a club which would kill the action regardless.
AJ/KJ would be a retarded PF call and it's not worth betting in the hope he has 1 of a few hands which call a bet.

We're losing to everything else and the hands we're not losing to will not call a bet. Betting that flop just balloons the pot in a marginal situation.Yes it's true that checking means villain could catch up but there's only really 2 cards in the whole deck we're not super happy to see and we're not stacking off if either ace comes because we're just not that stupid.


Betting the turn is absolutely compulsory now. We have the 2nd nuts and almost every hand in his range is going to call the bet and we're only losing to KQ. Plus we have shown presumed weakness on the flop, the only hands our villain is folding here is AK and the smaller pairs. All the 2-pairs, sets, flush draws are calling.

check is better to induce a bluff....

Just my thoughts :)

Yes checking is better to induce a bluff. Name a single hand that you are currently beating that will call a massive river bet like that?

Set are now boats/quads, 2prs are either boats or folding, Queens are split pots unless villain has king with his queen. Flush draws are folding everything. Maybe you get called by 77 if villain is really dumb...
 
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MercilessKiller

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Yes checking is better to induce a bluff. Name a single hand that you are currently beating that will call a massive river bet like that?

Set are now boats/quads, 2prs are either boats or folding, Queens are split pots unless villain has king with his queen. Flush draws are folding everything. Maybe you get called by 77 if villain is really dumb...

Exactly.

My statement is referring to the value bet and the size. If you are going to bet $2 and expect a call from a worse hand, then villain would also call $3 with the same hand so I don't see why the value bet has to be too small..

The problem here is there's no reads on villain. Plus if you bet you don't have to showdown, while if you're pretty sure he's going to check behind you you're giving away information you don't need to.... But as I said it's the read that's crucial in your river play. With the way it was it does look like he's on a missed draw or something so he'd be folding to any bet so a check would be the best option...

So if you're going to value bet, value bet more. Best way of doing that is of course building up a bigger pot earlier in the line, especially pre flop! To be honest the river play isn't that important as the rest of the line in this case.
 
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WossaPotOddz

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I agree. If villain is going to call any size bet on the river then shove is the only way to go.
 
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soonerdel

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I see nothing wrong with the way u played the hand after the flop.
pre flop i would raise more to isolate one player at most.
 
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WossaPotOddz

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pre flop i would raise more to isolate one player at most.

no reads like 20 hands in but he did have AA the first hand called 6x raise i minraised AK he reraised all in 50bb
then this hand comes up

PokerStars Game #30503240899: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2009/07/15 18:50:38 ET
Table 'Principia V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: runcerfrun ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: BadBeatsFUll ($5.72 in chips)
Seat 4: AggresssiV ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 5: AnKBG ($5.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Siduk1 ($12.90 in chips)
Seat 7: stas2002 ($1.55 in chips)
Seat 8: AlenaGr ($3.48 in chips)
Seat 9: Kocurrek ($7.38 in chips)
Dannymania89 will be allowed to play after the button
BadBeatsFUll: posts small blind $0.02
AggresssiV: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BadBeatsFUll [Qs Qh]
AnKBG: folds
Siduk1: calls $0.05
stas2002: calls $0.05
AlenaGr: calls $0.05
Kocurrek: raises $0.15 to $0.20
runcerfrun: folds
BadBeatsFUll: raises $0.35 to $0.55
AggresssiV: folds <---
Siduk1: folds <---
stas2002: folds <---
AlenaGr: folds <---
Kocurrek: calls $0.35 <---
*** FLOP *** [Tc Jc 8h] <---

??
 
StormRaven

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imo - I make it .70+ pf. Pf raise is too low. He just showed AA - stats say he shouldn't have it again for another 220 hands. Do not check this flop, ever. You are allowing your opp to catch up. Be happy to put in a pot sized bet here and take the pot down - if he calls I'm shoving on the turn. I like to follow Doyle's advice in these situations - it's better to win a small pot with a large ppr than to lose a large one playing it to the river.
 
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MercilessKiller

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He just showed AA - stats say he shouldn't have it again for another 220 hands.

Just because he's had AA in a previous hand should make absolutely no influence on what hand he has in a followup one unless the betting pattern suggests something :).

The other night I had KK 3 times within 10 minutes on the same table. Damn I wish you were on my table! ;)
 
ImolAyrton

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You bet very strange dude?? Check the flop and Valuebet this river??

Check the river and bet the flop
 
RIBA

RIBA

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I see thx I'm new I mess up that's why I'm here to learn
what was the wired part about it
was the call of the value bet and he showed jj
 
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MercilessKiller

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Wossa was right with what he said..

You were most likely only being called by something that was beating you.

I'm just confused that he didn't raise if he had JJ???
 
Implied Odds3

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I raise at least .60+ preflop and bet the flop to make it look like a c-bet.
Turn is fine and the river is fine to me unless you wanted to check to induce a bluff.

Im still confused why he didnt raise with 2nd nuts on the river.
 
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