$5 NLHE Full Ring: AKs gets 3-bet from button

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 28/12/35

full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1018854
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SB: $5.02
BB: $2.96
Hero (UTG): $5.00
MP: $6.05
CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.49

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG with A :club: K :club:
Hero raises to $0.25, 3 folds, SB raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5 all in, SB calls $4.25

Flop: ($10.05) 9 :spade: 9 :heart: 2 :spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($10.05) 2 :club: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($10.05) 7 :spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Any thoughts on how this went down? :icon_scra

AK is by far my biggest problem. And it all happens pre-flop. That is where most of my money goes.

How often does villain 3bet? How wide do you think he calls the 4bet?

I assume you're image is rather tight? so when he 3bets your UTG open I wouldn't be expecting him to fold here all that often.

My stats at the table were something like 16/10/55 I believe. So I am sure I had a tight image. I do believe I had a very low fold to 3-bet%.

HomeBrewer said:

My stats at the table were something like 16/10/55 I believe. So I am sure I had a tight image. I do believe I had a very low fold to 3-bet%.

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What about his 3bet stat?

I think it was like 7-9%

If he's 3betting that often it more than fine imo. If you really are losing lots with AK when you're shoving it preflop you really do need to take a closer look at what your opponents are actually 3betting though. If they're only 3betting AK/QQ+ getting AK in preflop just isn't going to work. Don't get me wrong you should be losing money with AK when they call your all-in shove (not much hopefully) but the money you make from AK is when they 3bet/fold.

Edit: this is 6-max right? Sorry, I guess you crazy 6-max guys get it in with like 99/AQ+ so getting AK in against that range would likely show a profit even before adding in the folds.

HomeBrewer said:

I think it was like 7-9%

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Over how many hands?

If its under a few hundred I would not put much stock in that figure.

Usually Micro 3bet ranges are under 5% often under 3%

But if this guy had been dealt AA and KK a couple of times in a few orbits and you have less than 200 hands on him then his 3bet stat could look much higher than it really is.

When in doubt assume people 3bet a very narrow range rather than a very wide range. AK is the bottom of this tight range.

EDIT: just like WV's edit, my advice is geared more towards fullring.

Although saying that why shove AK? you get very little more fold equity than 4betting to $1.75 .. if he shoves he is usually beating you and you can fold. By the same token when he calls a shove here, he usually has you beat although im sure he has 9Ts and sucked out on you lol

Title says AKs gets 3-bet from button but HH says SB? Different answer depending on position.

Also title says Full Ring - is this a FR table playing short handed or a 6max table?

FR short handed. There was a full table, but only 6 hands dealt. And you are right. He was the SB. I was mistaken. I don't know why I thought he was the button.

HomeBrewer said:

FR short handed. There was a full table, but only 6 hands dealt. And you are right. He was the SB. I was mistaken. I don't know why I thought he was the button.

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Ranges dont alter that much at these stakes if there are 6 players. Its FR and people are playing FR.

It really only changes at a FR table HU or 3way when everyone thinks they musnt fold preflop.. ever!

WVHillbilly said:

Edit: this is 6-max right? Sorry, I guess you crazy 6-max guys get it in with like 99/AQ+ so getting AK in against that range would likely show a profit even before adding in the folds.

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Stu_Ungar said:

Ranges dont alter that much at these stakes if there are 6 players. Its FR and people are playing FR.

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I don't play FR so can't comment on hand

Stu_Ungar said:

Over how many hands?

If its under a few hundred I would not put much stock in that figure.

Usually Micro 3bet ranges are under 5% often under 3%

But if this guy had been dealt AA and KK a couple of times in a few orbits and you have less than 200 hands on him then his 3bet stat could look much higher than it really is.

When in doubt assume people 3bet a very narrow range rather than a very wide range. AK is the bottom of this tight range.

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QFT. One of the best bits of advice I've seen posted about Full Ring Micro play.

When I am 3bet by an unknown who doesn't seem spewtardish AK & QQ are definite folds.

Stu: what are your thoughts about flattting JJ+ AK when effective stack sizes are around 100bb?? I really haven't done it but curious if this could be +EV. Right now I am 4 betting AA KK,although I have stopped 4 bet/ shoving, now my 4 bet is usually around 30-32bb. By doing this I at least give myself the option to fold KK to a 5bet/ shove if villain is an 11/9 nit or lower. So far I think I have only folded after 4betting once, I opened from the button with AQs, got 3bet from the blinds by a 24/18 type villain, so I 4 bet around 30 bb and he shoved so I folded.

fx20736 said:

When I am 3bet by an unknown who doesn't seem spewtardish AK & QQ are definite folds.

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If this really is the case I am never going anywhere near FR, ever.

fx20736 said:

Stu: what are your thoughts about flattting JJ+ AK when effective stack sizes are around 100bb?? I really haven't done it but curious if this could be +EV. Right now I am 4 betting AA KK,although I have stopped 4 bet/ shoving, now my 4 bet is usually around 30-32bb. By doing this I at least give myself the option to fold KK to a 5bet/ shove if villain is an 11/9 nit or lower. So far I think I have only folded after 4betting once, I opened from the button with AQs, got 3bet from the blinds by a 24/18 type villain, so I 4 bet around 30 bb and he shoved so I folded.

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Obviously it depends on the villian. There are some that I will 4bet / shove these hands for value but against the majority I will consider flatting in position but fold OOP. Its harder to get to SD OOP than IP. JJ and AK are the bottom of a tight 3bet range. If you put a 6% 3bet range into poker stove then JJ is slightly ahead of this range. The problem you face is that its slightly ahead of a 6% 3bet range but way behind the same villians continuance range when you 4bet. So basically you win lots of small pots when he folds but find yourself pot committed against a range that generally beats you when he dosent fold.

So I really dont like 4betting these hands against the majority of players because their 3bet range is too value bias and they dont continue light.. who is shoving over my 4bet with 99? Shorter stacks this is an instant shove but with 100bb at microstakes this is usually a loosing hand.

Whilst I will flat these hands, you are never happy postflop with JJ in a 3bet pot. People usually cbet 100% of flops in a 3bet pot and cbet too big. So you cant flat JJ see a flop where there is no A or K and then fold to a cbet. If you raise your opponent always plays perfectly, folding hands you beat and shoving hands that beat you. So on the turn the pot is really big and if villian dosent give up here what do you do? AA KK QQ are all in his 3bet and cbet range. AK.. AK can suckout on you and thats a lot more likely if your plan is to check through the turn. Basically you are hoping he 3bet 99 cbet than and then gives up. So you need a read that if villian checks the turn he has given up and will fold to your shove.

The problem you have with reads at micros is people play wierdly they might check back hands that beat you and still call your shove.

This hand is just hard to play where its at the bottom of a value range. Now when people start to bluff 3bet, bluff 4 bet etc it isnt at the bottom of a value range, so now we can get it in preflop or postflop and expect it to do quite well. But the single biggest mistake in micros is people call too much rather than bluff too much. JJ is the ultimate bluff catcher, so it dosent really have all that much value in games where people are not bluffing.

Stu_Ungar said:

Obviously it depends on the villian. There are some that I will 4bet / shove these hands for value but against the majority I will consider flatting in position but fold OOP. Its harder to get to SD OOP than IP. JJ and AK are the bottom of a tight 3bet range. If you put a 6% 3bet range into poker stove then JJ is slightly ahead of this range. The problem you face is that its slightly ahead of a 6% 3bet range but way behind the same villians continuance range when you 4bet. So basically you win lots of small pots when he folds but find yourself pot committed against a range that generally beats you when he dosent fold.

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Stu_Ungar said:

So I really dont like 4betting these hands against the majority of players because their 3bet range is too value bias and they dont continue light.. who is shoving over my 4bet with 99? Shorter stacks this is an instant shove but with 100bb at microstakes this is usually a loosing hand.

Whilst I will flat these hands, you are never happy postflop with JJ in a 3bet pot. People usually cbet 100% of flops in a 3bet pot and cbet too big. So you cant flat JJ see a flop where there is no A or K and then fold to a cbet. If you raise your opponent always plays perfectly, folding hands you beat and shoving hands that beat you. So on the turn the pot is really big and if villian dosent give up here what do you do? AA KK QQ are all in his 3bet and cbet range. AK.. AK can suckout on you and thats a lot more likely if your plan is to check through the turn. Basically you are hoping he 3bet 99 cbet than and then gives up. So you need a read that if villian checks the turn he has given up and will fold to your shove.

The problem you have with reads at micros is people play wierdly they might check back hands that beat you and still call your shove.

This hand is just hard to play where its at the bottom of a value range. Now when people start to bluff 3bet, bluff 4 bet etc it isnt at the bottom of a value range, so now we can get it in preflop or postflop and expect it to do quite well. But the single biggest mistake in micros is people call too much rather than bluff too much. JJ is the ultimate bluff catcher, so it dosent really have all that much value in games where people are not bluffing.

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Thanks. This is just further confirmation of the way I've been playing QQ, JJ & AK. If you look at most EV charts the EV for QQ is usually around 1.2 bb and JJ is usually around .8bb and AKo around .5bb so I no longer will play for stacks with these hands. I've tried flatting QQ OOP once or twice but in that spot it is such a brittle hand. If you flat and there is no A or K on flop and villain is either unknown or has a 3bet% under 5 then you really can't feel good about any flop because AA & KK makes up too many combinations that beat you. And, if you donk bet you may get bluffed out by AK anyway. What I will do, if I get 3bet by villain who I have stats on and is 3betting 5%+ is 4bet QQ to around 30-35bb which I've had some success with. What that leaves is one possible scenario: If you have KK and get 3bet by a villain with an extremely tight 3bet range, a 4bet shove would be disastrous if villain wisely folds QQ & AK to a shove and only calls with AA. So in that one instance how would feel about flatting and check/ jamming any non A flop and check/folding to an A? I suppose against any observant reg it would be best to play AA exactly the same way with a CRAI instead of a c/f??

fx20736 said:

Thanks. This is just further confirmation of the way I've been playing QQ, JJ & AK. If you look at most EV charts the EV for QQ is usually around 1.2 bb and JJ is usually around .8bb and AKo around .5bb so I no longer will play for stacks with these hands. I've tried flatting QQ OOP once or twice but in that spot it is such a brittle hand. If you flat and there is no A or K on flop and villain is either unknown or has a 3bet% under 5 then you really can't feel good about any flop because AA & KK makes up too many combinations that beat you. And, if you donk bet you may get bluffed out by AK anyway. What I will do, if I get 3bet by villain who I have stats on and is 3betting 5%+ is 4bet QQ to around 30-35bb which I've had some success with. What that leaves is one possible scenario: If you have KK and get 3bet by a villain with an extremely tight 3bet range, a 4bet shove would be disastrous if villain wisely folds QQ & AK to a shove and only calls with AA. So in that one instance how would feel about flatting and check/ jamming any non A flop and check/folding to an A? I suppose against any observant reg it would be best to play AA exactly the same way with a CRAI instead of a c/f??

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When flatting hands IP.. do ask yourself why?

I think you were playing 2NL.. so at those stakes, just 3bet.

But as you get higher you will find that some players become insanely aggressive in blind vs btn situations. So by flatting you are guaranteed a c-bet and people will stack off light in this situation... they always bet too big on the flop hoping you will fold.. then on the turn they just put themselves into a really awkward situation where they can only win by bluffing and you arent folding.

As for KK

Just get the money in.

What you find is that peoples 3bet ranges are so tight that their 4bet range includes almost everything in the 3bet range.. hence 4 bet bluffs can not work often enough to show a profit. If you flat and the flop has no ace, AK puts no more money in the pot. So you are better off just shoving KK pre.. you will get called by worse. You will have sessions where its AA every time. The only possible time there is any reason to fold KK is if villian 3bets less than 1% over a large sample (AA KK) or if the actyion has a raise, and reraise from normally very tight players. Its the unexpected reraise that should send out alarm bells. Other than that get it in and when he shows up with AK / QQ / JJ he thinks its a cooler but it isnt.. you are only ever getting it in with AA and KK so you are actually outplaying the guy.


EDIT: that isnt worded correctly. What I mean is that someone when someone who is very tight cold 4bets and the action began with a tight UTG player, that 4bet is almost always AA

Stu_Ungar said:

When flatting hands IP.. do ask yourself why?

.

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I could think of several, almost always where I am in LP and the pot is heads up when it gets to me:

1) If you want are against a villain who opens wide but folds to 3bets fairly easily you would want to keep them in so if you have QQ and villain might fold AQ to your 3bet but get aggressive with TPTK then I think you would get more money by flatting.

2) An opponent who opens wide but doesn't fold to 3 bets easily and who maybe likes to c-bet alot, it might be better to flat as this opponent probably plays alot of junk Aces and possibly Kings and 3betting 88 99 TT & possibly JJ would cause you to fold if they donk betted any scare card but if the flop had no Aces or paint then re-raising them on the flop might get a fold and you often would have decent equity for a showdown if they are stubborn and and want to see 5 streets as cheaply as possible. In effect you are really just delaying the 3bet until after the flop.

3) A tight villain had a very strong opening range. Then 3 betting as a bluff or semi-bluff would be -EV as their 4bet percentage would be very high. Here it might be better to flat almost pp JJ or below as they would be more likely to stack off with an overpair if you hit your set and if you miss you could fold with minimal investment.

maybe there are others but these three come to mind off the bat.

fx20736 said:

I could think of several, almost always where I am in LP and the pot is heads up when it gets to me:

1) If you want are against a villain who opens wide but folds to 3bets fairly easily you would want to keep them in so if you have QQ and villain might fold AQ to your 3bet but get aggressive with TPTK then I think you would get more money by flatting.

2) An opponent who opens wide but doesn't fold to 3 bets easily and who maybe likes to c-bet alot, it might be better to flat as this opponent probably plays alot of junk Aces and possibly Kings and 3betting 88 99 TT & possibly JJ would cause you to fold if they donk betted any scare card but if the flop had no Aces or paint then re-raising them on the flop might get a fold and you often would have decent equity for a showdown if they are stubborn and and want to see 5 streets as cheaply as possible. In effect you are really just delaying the 3bet until after the flop.

3) A tight villain had a very strong opening range. Then 3 betting as a bluff or semi-bluff would be -EV as their 4bet percentage would be very high. Here it might be better to flat almost pp JJ or below as they would be more likely to stack off with an overpair if you hit your set and if you miss you could fold with minimal investment.

maybe there are others but these three come to mind off the bat.

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I agree but at 2Nl 5NL 10NL people will call their stacks off with hands like AQ, they just wont bet them