Originally Posted by fx20736
Stu: what are your thoughts about flattting JJ+ AK when effective stack sizes are around 100bb?? I really haven't done it but curious if this could be +EV. Right now I am 4 betting AA KK,although I have stopped 4 bet/ shoving, now my 4 bet is usually around 30-32bb. By doing this I at least give myself the option to fold KK to a 5bet/ shove if villain is an 11/9 nit or lower. So far I think I have only folded after 4betting once, I opened from the button with AQs, got 3bet from the blinds by a 24/18 type villain, so I 4 bet around 30 bb and he shoved so I folded.
Obviously it depends on the villian. There are some that I will 4bet / shove these hands for value but against the majority I will consider flatting in position but fold OOP. Its harder to get to SD OOP than IP. JJ and AK are the bottom of a tight 3bet range. If you put a 6% 3bet range into poker stove then JJ is slightly ahead of this range. The problem you face is that its slightly ahead of a 6% 3bet range but way behind the same villians continuance range when you 4bet. So basically you win lots of small pots when he folds but find yourself pot committed against a range that generally beats you when he dosent fold.
So I really dont like 4betting these hands against the majority of players because their 3bet range is too value bias and they dont continue light.. who is shoving over my 4bet with 99? Shorter stacks this is an instant shove but with 100bb at microstakes this is usually a loosing hand.
Whilst I will flat these hands, you are never happy postflop with JJ in a 3bet pot. People usually cbet 100% of flops in a 3bet pot and cbet too big. So you cant flat JJ see a flop where there is no A or K and then fold to a cbet. If you raise your opponent always plays perfectly, folding hands you beat and shoving hands that beat you. So on the turn the pot is really big and if villian dosent give up here what do you do? AA KK QQ are all in his 3bet and cbet range. AK.. AK can suckout on you and thats a lot more likely if your plan is to check through the turn. Basically you are hoping he 3bet 99 cbet than and then gives up. So you need a read that if villian checks the turn he has given up and will fold to your shove.
The problem you have with reads at micros is people play wierdly they might check back hands that beat you and still call your shove.
This hand is just hard to play where its at the bottom of a value range. Now when people start to bluff 3bet, bluff 4 bet etc it isnt at the bottom of a value range, so now we can get it in preflop or postflop and expect it to do quite well. But the single biggest mistake in micros is people call too much rather than bluff too much. JJ is the ultimate bluff catcher, so it dosent really have all that much value in games where people are not bluffing.