$5 NLHE Full Ring: $5 NLHE FR KK playing overpair OTF OOP

jashiggs

jashiggs

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Hi All,

This is the First hand i am posting on here. Starting to understand opponents tendencies a bit more and want to start posting more hands to get a better understanding from you guys.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 7 players

BB: 17.4 BB (VPIP: 10.34, PFR: 5.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 87)
UTG: 115.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 12.08, PFR: 11.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.14, Hands: 841)
MP: 108.2 BB (VPIP: 12.80, PFR: 11.59, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 165)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BTN: 273.4 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 6.38, Hands: 117)
Hero (SB): 100 BB

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:club: K:heart:

fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, BTN calls 6 BB

Flop: (19 BB, 2 players) 9:spade: 2:heart: 4:heart:
Hero bets 14 BB, BTN raises to 264.4 BB and is all-in, Hero ???
 
N

nicolas jesus

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have to pay the top of your range is a bad play the villain shove
In the end, what had villain in this hand?
Then you got to take note that had villain. And see how he played villain
your cbet is very big on that flop so dry
can do to balance check, check the idea is to have a strong range check.
And the large size of your c-bet would be to exploit, but never you prune to fold there
 
John A

John A

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5NL, you have to call here. People will shove some over pairs and draws way too often.
 
jashiggs

jashiggs

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5NL, you have to call here. People will shove some over pairs and draws way too often.
Thanks john. Is this happening something we would regularly encounter at these stakes against this type of opponent? His stats for what i had didn't appear too out of line. I felt the draw was a long shot and sets were more likely although overpair definatley a possibility.
 
John A

John A

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Long term EV vs. an unknown, it would be stupid to shove a set here. Not saying that people at 5nl won't do that, but it's not a the highest EV line against decent players. Especially in an open button 3-bet spot. So just put a range in that you think is reasonable, and punch it into an equity calc if you're unsure. I'd suggest that when you're posting hands, to post the range you think your opponent has and talk about the hand in terms of how correct your range assessment is, and frequency of those hands within the range. You'll get a much better understanding of poker, and grow a lot quicker as a player if you approach the forums this way imho.
 
John A

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Here's an example where I have a range with some over pairs, and only one big draw - Ah5h.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: 9s 2h 4h

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
51.0001% 49.4802% 1.52% [ KhKc ]
48.9999% 47.4799% 1.52% [ 99(100), 22(100), 44(100), Ah5h(100), JJ+(100),TT(40) ]

That's saying they are only shoving TT 40% of the time, JJ+, all sets and draws. No Ah9h, and no bluffs at all really, which isn't realistic. You have to add a bluff or two.
 
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ChrisMurray

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Firstly, John's completely right about approaching hands in terms of analysing the range of opponents and really delving into it. If you've seen any of my other posts you'll see that I always try to create a range for the opponent to have when talking about a hand and narrow it down as we get more information. If you practice this enough you can eventually condense the process into the time you have for a decision in real-time.

Pre-flop. Obviously a standard 3-bet, but I'd like to see a little bigger because we're OOP. 11-13BB here.
He's going to R/C pretty wide BTN v SB, despite being pretty tight because he's IP and seems to be on a a rush (from his large stack). 22-TT, AQo, KQo, A2s-AQs, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, 76s+ and 97s+. That should be the widest he goes here.


Flop: Now, I've plugged this range and the flop into my calculator, and it shows he'll have hit a set 6% of the time, and an OP (TT) 4%. It's difficult for him to flop a strong draw because we hold the Kh, a strong blocker to a flush draw. However, he still hits a flush draw 13% of the time here.
He could play the NFD this way (although it certainly wouldn't be what I would do) because he does have some fold equity if we have AK or some such hand. He could also play sets, TT this way.
We should call this, seeing as we're probably flipping against his range, and we need less than that to call profitably.
 
jashiggs

jashiggs

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Long term EV vs. an unknown, it would be stupid to shove a set here. Not saying that people at 5nl won't do that, but it's not a the highest EV line against decent players. Especially in an open button 3-bet spot. So just put a range in that you think is reasonable, and punch it into an equity calc if you're unsure. I'd suggest that when you're posting hands, to post the range you think your opponent has and talk about the hand in terms of how correct your range assessment is, and frequency of those hands within the range. You'll get a much better understanding of poker, and grow a lot quicker as a player if you approach the forums this way imho.

Perfect, thankyou very much. I will add more information on ranges when adding more hands to the forum.

This is something i am actively working very hard on and feel as though i am narrowing ranges better and better as i progress.
 
jashiggs

jashiggs

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Firstly, John's completely right about approaching hands in terms of analysing the range of opponents and really delving into it. If you've seen any of my other posts you'll see that I always try to create a range for the opponent to have when talking about a hand and narrow it down as we get more information. If you practice this enough you can eventually condense the process into the time you have for a decision in real-time.

Pre-flop. Obviously a standard 3-bet, but I'd like to see a little bigger because we're OOP. 11-13BB here.
He's going to R/C pretty wide BTN v SB, despite being pretty tight because he's IP and seems to be on a a rush (from his large stack). 22-TT, AQo, KQo, A2s-AQs, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, 76s+ and 97s+. That should be the widest he goes here.


Flop: Now, I've plugged this range and the flop into my calculator, and it shows he'll have hit a set 6% of the time, and an OP (TT) 4%. It's difficult for him to flop a strong draw because we hold the Kh, a strong blocker to a flush draw. However, he still hits a flush draw 13% of the time here.
He could play the NFD this way (although it certainly wouldn't be what I would do) because he does have some fold equity if we have AK or some such hand. He could also play sets, TT this way.
We should call this, seeing as we're probably flipping against his range, and we need less than that to call profitably.

I am going to take a look at some for your posts shortly Chris, thanks for your response.
 
John A

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Perfect, thankyou very much. I will add more information on ranges when adding more hands to the forum.

This is something i am actively working very hard on and feel as though i am narrowing ranges better and better as i progress.

Great. It's going to be one of the best ways to utilize these forums. When top pros discuss a hand, it pretty much always just comes down to how frequent they think someone will do Y% with X hand. The first step though is getting that whole range out in a way that makes sense, and then refining how often you think someone is actually doing it with different subsets of that range.

GL my friend.
 
Shumkoolie

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I agree with John A. in that it's a -EV play to shove sets here. If you flop a big hand, you want to keep your opponent in the pot because you want to keep some of their bluffs in as well as their big hands because they are going to pay off enough of the time.

Your holding Kh here is interesting because he just flatted your 3bet. It's very possible that he's got the NFD with Ax of hearts. If he had AK, he's probably going to 4bet in this spot some of the time, so you can't discount AQhh/AJhh and maybe even worse Aces that are NFD's.

Other hands to consider are overpairs to the board, TT+, which others have already mentioned ITT. If he doesn't have the NFD, he may be putting you on the NFD w/ AKhh. I understand the shove in the context that he wants to price you out of continuing with your "draw" and may be scared of overcards coming on later streets. Many players play TT/JJ this way and want to end the hand right then and there. Generally, a lot of people tend to 3bet AK in the blinds and on a board like that, it completely misses unless AK is suited and they have the NFD. He may be narrowing your range to exactly AKhh here.

Then there's the possibility that you're being leveled and the villain here has AA or a set. I'm calling here as well, especially if I have a read on this person that is such that he hasn't shown that he plays beyond level 1, which is highly likely at these stakes. If he leveled you, then gg and reload.
 
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