$5 NLHE 6-max: When do YOU fold KK pre?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 24/21/1.5

The hand itself is not really that relevant I think. The question is: Should I ever fold KK preflop against Villain with that 3B-Range?

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): $5.96
BTN: $5.59 (VPIP: 11.76, PFR: 8.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 35)
SB: $5.14 (VPIP: 22.02, PFR: 11.93, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 111)
BB: $6.95 (VPIP: 24.26, PFR: 21.30, 3Bet Preflop: 8.77, Hands: 172)
UTG: $6.91 (VPIP: 23.62, PFR: 16.54, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 132)
MP: $8.94 (VPIP: 24.39, PFR: 12.20, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has K:heart: K:diamond:

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN calls $0.15, fold, BB raises to $0.60, Hero raises to $1.20, fold, BB raises to $3.77, Hero raises to $5.96 and is all-in, BB calls $2.19

Flop: ($12.09, 2 players) 8:spade: 6:club: T:club:

Turn: ($12.09, 2 players) 8:heart:

River: ($12.09, 2 players) 7:spade:

I've seen him call AI preflop with less before...

Never against that guy. You can consider calling and trapping though. 3-bet and 5-bet range are completely different though, but you're never folding here.

cant fold kk versus anyone,esp not him.

At 5NL, a 5-bet without shoving is pretty much always the nuts.

thebigslade said:

At 5NL, a 5-bet without shoving is pretty much always the nuts.

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Pretty much yea but still the times you lose from AA when you have KK will balance themselves out in the longrun when you have AA and fall into KK. Variance will equalize the extra burdon of having to make that decision.(i think)

I cannot EVER fold KK pre,unless villain is superrrrrrr nittty and 5bet minraises.//// and not even then am i folding.

How many hands would you need on a villian to take a 5bet raising range seroiusly?.......maybe I'm the only one, but I could let kings go here.

AlfieAA said:

How many hands would you need on a villian to take a 5bet raising range seroiusly?.......maybe I'm the only one, but I could let kings go here.

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Maybe like 500 and above. 1k+ would be ideal i think. ( although it could be like 10K and i might be talking crazy)

vinylspiros said:

Pretty much yea but still the times you lose from AA when you have KK will balance themselves out in the longrun when you have AA and fall into KK. Variance will equalize the extra burdon of having to make that decision.(i think)

I cannot EVER fold KK pre,unless villain is superrrrrrr nittty and 5bet minraises.//// and not even then am i folding.

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What range would you assign to a non-nitty reg that 5-bets without a shove. I can understand a shove bluff against a light 4-bettor, but villain's line above is always AA.

thebigslade said:

What range would you assign to a non-nitty reg that 5-bets without a shove. I can understand a shove bluff against a light 4-bettor, but villain's line above is always AA.

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It is. I agree.( but a small part of it is QQ,KK and AKsuited)

Harrington on cash games says "Never fold KK preflop, for every time you think they have aces more often than not it will be QQ, AK, worse or even bluffs."
Personally Villian would have to be vpip 10 or less over 100+ hands for me to even consider it and then maybe after a 5th raise.
In Nov I ran KK into AA six times in two weeks but not since.
Calling and consider jamming an ace free flop is an alternative.

never, well not against one villain, sometimes one is going to lose (sometimes more than expected) but if one wants to succeed then there is no way that one folds such a hand,

what special occasions can fold? maybe against several people raising and reraising, why? because the odds are reduced considerably when there are more people in, for example if three people are in, one could have Ax, and the other two lower pairs, so one will lose holding kings, if an ace, or a set gets into the board, or somthing like a flush a trip or a straight (those odds are increased in a multiway pot), so instead of staying over 70% then maybe one is under 50%

vinylspiros said:

Maybe like 500 and above. 1k+ would be ideal i think. ( although it could be like 10K and i might be talking crazy)

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Thanks vinny, thought the sample would need to be highish lol, might be better at 25nl and up though...2,5 and 10nl especially the first two is far too big to get any good villian hands on.

Villain at 24/21 isn't a terribly loose player, and wouldn't slow play AKs, QQ, or the other KK. High 3B doesn't imply anything about his 5B range.

I'm folding here. Sorry.

Geez people, unless you have rock solid read on him after working with your database (yes, that is allowed you lazy buggers) just GII and forget about it.

Yes there are people who I know for a fact never ever ever ever in a million years don't go beyond 3bet with less than AA and vs them I fold or setmine KK (even though it is kind of iffy since sometimes they spike their 3rd Ace)... but I have seen like 5 of them total in over a year of playing. Most people have a working brain.

@LD1977: What does "GII" mean? Thanks!

Rhinelander said:

@LD1977: What does "GII" mean? Thanks!

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Get it in

LD1977 said:

Geez people, unless you have rock solid read on him after working with your database (yes, that is allowed you lazy buggers) just GII and forget about it.

Yes there are people who I know for a fact never ever ever ever in a million years don't go beyond 3bet with less than AA and vs them I fold or setmine KK (even though it is kind of iffy since sometimes they spike their 3rd Ace)... but I have seen like 5 of them total in over a year of playing. Most people have a working brain.

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So do you think 5B QQ/AK is possible from 5NL players?

Not at 5NL, not 119BB stack not against a player with a high 3-bet percentage. The fact that you hit the top of his range is just a cooler. Your play was perfect.

Everything is possible depending on player type.

thebigslade said:

So do you think 5B QQ/AK is possible from 5NL players?

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Perfectly possible and a lot of them do that. Even the regulars that pay some attention do not comprehend the exact range of someone that is 4-betting.

I think folding KK in a 6max game at 5NL is silly unless you have an absolutely rock solid read on your opponent over a good few thousand hands. I doubt you had that so getting it in with kings is perfect.
Although saying that sometimes against very nitty players I flat 4bets with KK as I think theyll mostly be 4betting QQ KK AA AK maybe JJ but against a 5bet from me they would fold the JJ QQ and AK. Therefore when the flop is T high for example we can shove and they will call with JJ QQ AA so we get action from weaker hands, whereas preflop we would only get action from stronger ones.
This is just something Ive been thinking about and putting into my game, Id love to hear thoughts and counter arguments from you guys about it as im not sure if it correct?

Try calculating how much money you make risk-free (AK has 30% equity vs you, others 18%) and your equity vs KK+, frequency of both events and then come back here.

Thanks guys! Much appreciated. I found enough support for my play to continue that way. Yes, I do have stats and notes about a few very tight opponents which clearly suggest that their 4Bet means nothing but AA. Just like Harrington writes in his 6Max Book.

never fold preflop KK, many time villain have range AKs AQs TT+ and you will be ahead, in distance this shove +EV. U can only fold KK if u have +120BB , but u need sure what villain very tight and he rdy play on stack , but it is a controversial decision