$5 NLHE 6-max: Underpair OOP in 3Bet pot, dafuq?

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ScottishMatt

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No clue what to do in these spots. I'm fine with pre, I know I'll be getting called by worse so I can definitely squeeze for value. Not a great flop but whatever. With the Q+9 being there I feel if I fire the only worse PP that is calling regularly is TT and I don't think he is going to call flop + take AK to showdown. When he bombs turn I can't think of a hand he would bet so big with that wants to get value, however I'm not willing to GII with an underpair when facing aggression just because I have what might be a sizing tell. Can someone break this spot/situation down for me and give me some examples on how to proceed?

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $7.20 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, hands: 1)
SB: $6.68 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (BB): $5.08
UTG: $6.63 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
MP: $6.05 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: $4.75 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J:heart: J:spade:

UTG raises to $0.10, MP calls $0.10, fold, BTN calls $0.10, fold, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG calls $0.50, fold, fold

Flop: ($1.42, 2 players) 9:club: Q:diamond: 5:spade:
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.00, Hero calls $1.00

Turn: ($3.42, 2 players) 6:club:
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.45, fold
 
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js520

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I really hate this kind of spot as well and really struggle with it, just subbing to see the responses
 
igySK

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i think you played it well, his range on turn is too strong, he's not likely to be 2barreling in a 3bet vs unknown with a worse hand and with this sizing.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Well since you checked the flop we can assume he's always going to be c-betting... I can't see the turn card changing the scenario and your check/calling is just weak play

You've shown huge strength by 3betting .. But shown weakness on the flop, your not defending a strong hand which means your weak. What would your opponent be thinking? If you lead out on the flop, he should believe you and not bluff this pot. And if he calls you know he's hit.

Either lead out... or check raise... Never just call imo your not getting information and your opening yourself up to be bluffed. But possibly just possibly check raising this guy will give you the free river card.
 
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RodneyC86

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Well since you checked the flop we can assume he's always going to be c-betting... I can't see the turn card changing the scenario and your check/calling is just weak play

You've shown huge strength by 3betting .. But shown weakness on the flop, your not defending a strong hand which means your weak. What would your opponent be thinking? If you lead out on the flop, he should believe you and not bluff this pot. And if he calls you know he's hit.

Either lead out... or check raise... Never just call imo your not getting information and your opening yourself up to be bluffed. But possibly just possibly check raising this guy will give you the free river card.

While I do agree calling is risky play in general, it actually does have the most potential for maximal return when employed right.

JJ is a good SDV hand in this spot. A huge portion of your opponent's 3bet range would have missed this flop (AK makes up a huge part of a non light 3better and even among light 3betters, they tend not to choose Qx hands to 3bet light with). So therefore, more often than not, they have air! When a huge portion of their range is air given a flop, calling is indeed the best move to induce barrels with air!

Of course, most players are not really agro enough at this level (and probably rightfully so ) to double barrel a 3bet pot with air. So imo, once you flatcall the flop and still get barreled into, like Igy said, it's a fold.

keep in mind if you raise you only get hands that beat you call or raise you, at which point you lose the call money plus the raise amount
 
Beanfacekilla

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OP:

You 3-bet preflop. This shows villain you are really strong...

I really think you should have followed through with a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. The flop was pretty dry.

And just because the queen flopped, and it might have worried you, you still have to follow through here and c-bet the flop OOP. If you don't, you are just handing villain the keys....

Just because a Q hit the board, doesn't mean it helped the villain here. Those UTG min raises are often done with mediocre hands at micro stakes (from my experience anyways).

Your hand has showdown value.
 
RodneyC86

RodneyC86

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OP:

You 3-bet preflop. This shows villain you are really strong...

I really think you should have followed through with a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. The flop was pretty dry.

And just because the queen flopped, and it might have worried you, you still have to follow through here and c-bet the flop OOP. If you don't, you are just handing villain the keys....

Just because a Q hit the board, doesn't mean it helped the villain here. Those UTG min raises are often done with mediocre hands at micro stakes (from my experience anyways).

Your hand has showdown value.

I read before, that Q high boards, even when dry are bad boards to cbet into a 3bet pot. Course, this is 5nl and mileage varies i suppose.
 
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ScottishMatt

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The Q doesn't scare me - it just makes things complicated. I'd put a flop calling range at like 99/TT/JJ/AQ, occasionally KQ and perhaps throw an AK float in there sometimes.

If the board had came Q65 I was Cbetting for sure, but that Q+9 just limits the value I can get from worse PPs and I'll fold out his AK a lot when I bet as well.

Basically if we bet the flop, his calling range is going to have us dominated the majority of the time, on this particular board anyway. So really looking for alternative lines. I suppose bet flop and then X/C turn might be decent but still makes rivers super tough for us because we have no idea if he is willing to double barrel bluff ship AK.

By betting the flop we just get put into super tough spots where we end up bluff catching for our entire stack against an opponent who might never have a bluff in his range.

I'm lost here, someone help.
 
RodneyC86

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The Q doesn't scare me - it just makes things complicated. I'd put a flop calling range at like 99/TT/JJ/AQ, occasionally KQ and perhaps throw an AK float in there sometimes.

If the board had came Q65 I was Cbetting for sure, but that Q+9 just limits the value I can get from worse PPs and I'll fold out his AK a lot when I bet as well.

Basically if we bet the flop, his calling range is going to have us dominated the majority of the time, on this particular board anyway. So really looking for alternative lines. I suppose bet flop and then X/C turn might be decent but still makes rivers super tough for us because we have no idea if he is willing to double barrel bluff ship AK.

By betting the flop we just get put into super tough spots where we end up bluff catching for our entire stack against an opponent who might never have a bluff in his range.

I'm lost here, someone help.

Nonsense! :D You answered your own question. You said you are against an opponent who might never bluff (which is not at all unreasonable given 5nl).. So why are you worried about getting double-barrel bluff-shipped by an opponent holding AK in your third paragraph?

If he does have a hand you beat, we will not likely come to the point where we have to make that tough decision at the river. He shoves river? Just fold.

As for cbetting, yeah sure I was talking about not cbetting Q high boards, but I think I might just be leveling myself too much.
Why do you not want your opponent to fold out AK? Do you realize AK has pretty damn good equity (something like 25 percent?) against you? You need to bet to charge his AK if he wants to draw you out

I would check call this turn after cbetting, But DEFINITELY check/folding a river here.
 
RodneyC86

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Oh, for the record just cause a 9 is there doesn't mean he still won't call a street with 66-88. He mostly places you on big aces once you 3bet. the only question that he has to contend with is whether your big ace hit the queen or you have a overpair/ Qset or neither. The 9 does not concern him the least IMO provided he can think. Though granted, I kinda doubt people still call preflop with this even at 5nl, but hey maybe I just have too much faith in these guys
 
RodneyC86

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urgh just realized you don't really have a river to play since turn bet is so huge and commits.

Hmmm in that case, this is probably a fold turn. When people commit their whole stack, it's almost always something better than an invisible (hidden in your pocket) 2nd pair.

Good turn fold imo
 
Mr Sandbag

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This may not be the popular opinion, but I actually think you should not have 3-bet preflop in this hand. Preflop 3-betting with a hand like JJ puts you in a really tough spot postflop. Larger pot, OOP, with an overcard to your pair on the board. You 3-bet, so the pressure is on you to bet the flop. If you don't, villain has been given control and will be betting. You can't call him unless you intend on calling down to the river to showdown. You can't expect your hand to improve in any way, and if you check again, your opponent knows that you are weak and can probably put you on an underpair quite easily.

(Also, some say check-raising could have been an option, but that line really doesn't make sense and can look weak. Why would you pump the pot full of money preflop and check postflop when you are almost expected to bet with anything?)

This may sound strange, but if you call the preflop raise, you'll have more control than you think postflop. Your range is wider, and not only can you check the flop but your opponent can expect you to check the flop, giving him absolutely no information about your hand. He may retain "control" of the pot in better position, but now the pressure is on him because he knows you probably aren't donk betting whether or not you hit the flop. If he does bet, you can call him because the pot is still small, check the turn, and if he checks the turn, you can assume he's weak and make a river bet. If he does bet the turn again but you don't necessarily believe him, you can get to a showdown for significantly less money than if you had 3-bet preflop.
 
John A

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Bet the flop, unless you have a good reason (read on your opponent), to play the check/guess game. Poker is simple. Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Bet the flop, unless you have a good reason (read on your opponent), to play the check/guess game. Poker is simple. Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be.

So are we intending to bet flop and X/C turn then X/F river? . . . this is a tough spot for me and I don't want to take a route without having a plan.
 
John A

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Bet flop and turn, and c/f most rivers. He's not going to have a draw very often, so there's not much to pick off in terms of missed draws. If you had some reads, then checking and inducing more of your opponents bluffing range to bet would be ideal, but you don't have that info. So my general advice is keep it simple. There are still worse hands your opponent will call if they are min raising and then calling a 3-bet. You'll probably see a lot of mid pairs and of course Qx, etc..
 
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micromoi

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if u r willing to call why not betting it yourself atleast u getfold equity.
that saidi would Cbet for sur your check means nothing, u may check raise it showing even more strenght your r the original 3better.
going the the turn like u did the 6 did not change anything if u think he have a Q u should fold on the flop and not wait to the turn, u must call.
 
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engpaulino

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I really hate this kind of spot as well and really struggle with it, just subbing to see the responses too
 
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