$5 NLHE 6-max: Turning a big PP into a bluff on the turn

I'm not sure about spots like this. My current thinking is that betting turn is bad as it's not folding out K's but will fold out hands we beat. What do we do after we check and get bet in to? ch/f? What kinds of reads/types of villains are we check calling?

full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em $0.01 Ante - 5 players - View hand 1073010
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $4.45
BB: $3.45
Hero (UTG): $14.52
CO: $12.33
BTN: $3.68

Pre Flop: ($0.12) Hero is UTG with J :spade: J :club:
Hero raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.52) K :club: 5 :spade: 7 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, CO calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.12) Q :heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($1.12) Q :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

i always run into these type of hands....aren't we supposed to check the flop though b/c of the W/A W/B theory???

PattyR said:

i always run into these type of hands....aren't we supposed to check the flop though b/c of the W/A W/B theory???

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I don't check this flop OOP, I know I'm not playing against particularly well thinking opponents but it's a flop I'd c-bet with air so I'm betting JJ (smaller pairs will call, we'll get floated by overcards sometimes) but yes I'm checking BACK the flop here usually.

Maybe I should have edited out my action but it's there now, if you feel it would help the thread/analysis then take it out please WV.

i think this is fine.

Patty- i also bet here OOP as K-high fops are usually good to cbet on. If i'm called then I would usually check/call turn(depending on what the card is) and check/fold river(again depends)

So why are we betting the flop again? We can't fold any King and we're not "afraid" of many turn cards so the only real reason to bet the flop is if we think villain peels with a large portion of his range.

If that's the case I think we should usually be betting the river as well (maybe not this river but most). Cbetting as some sort of range balancing makes no sense to me and betting because we always cbet this type of flop is not a good reason to bet.

Because he didn't raise on the flop I'm putting him on a flush draw or weak King. If he's got a K he's scared of giving you what amounts to a free card there so he's raising (if he's any good at all). If he's got a weak king he's probably not calling a second barrel. I'm betting here slightly less than 1/2 pot bet. If he calls just check the river and, based on the action, he should probably check behind unless he hit the flush. Since I have him on the flush draw I don't feel bad about folding there.

wa/wb theory doesn't really apply that much OOP, and not as much at micros given peoples calling ranges are going to be so much wider. If he's got a lot of kings he's calling (ie pre and post; KTs+ for ex), he's most likely got any PP as well in his range, and peels most/all of his middle pairs.

OOP I'm usually cbetting for value against most players; fish peel fairly light, and regs do the same knowing I'm going to cbet this board all the time. My hand is similar to a weaker king in relative strength.

In this spot I'd be c/c turn only if I thought my opponent would be a) floating so light that he'd have and bet stuff like AJ/AT/89s, or b) would turn a hand like 7x into a bluff.

I generally find that people aren't thinking properly about how to play their hands of various hand strengths, so they do something like float A7s and bet when ch to on the turn. If that's the case (ie I've seen him bet middling showdownable hands/float really light), then I'm c/c turn and folding to a river bet. I generally don't see people go two streets when ch to. They basically think "ok he cbets lots, i'm gonna float him, now we bet when checked to...crap, he's got a pair, I give up".

If they're the type to float cbets light but generally don't get too aggro on turn/rivers, I'll play it the same by cbetting flop, but c/f turn given I don't expect them to bet 7x/TT-/gutters/OESDs.

If they don't float too much then I'm usually c/c flop and playing accordingly on turn/riv.

WVHillbilly said:

So why are we betting the flop again? We can't fold any King and we're not "afraid" of many turn cards so the only real reason to bet the flop is if we think villain peels with a large portion of his range.

If that's the case I think we should usually be betting the river as well (maybe not this river but most). Cbetting as some sort of range balancing makes no sense to me and betting because we always cbet this type of flop is not a good reason to bet.

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The fact that he will peel with lots of hands including pp's, make the bet for value.

I think to help with analysing with this type of hand I should give stats on the villain (though the hand represented a more general spot).

He was a fairly loose kinda passive calling station, 36/22/1.6 with 5.3% 3-bet over 202 hands. Folded to c-bets 33% of the time on 12 occasions.

I think the way I played it was ok though a bet on the river could have been correct to get value from his PP's depending on how big a part of his range they are. I just had the feeling he had a bad K that he wasn't folding. And if he would fold something like that I'd need to bet 3-streets which a K might call but his PP's won't and his floats would just always fold.

Betting the flop for value is fine but it just seemed like the responses were to bet because you always cbet King high flops which is no reason to bet.

If he is pretty stationy I do think you could probably eek out a little value with a river bet after he checks both the turn and river.

WVHillbilly said:

If he is pretty stationy I do think you could probably eek out a little value with a river bet after he checks both the turn and river.

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We're OOP not IP

I think we can b/f river and get him to call us with his bluff catchers (weaker PPs and 7s)

Pascal LeFiscal said:

We're OOP not IP

I think we can b/f river and get him to call us with his bluff catchers (weaker PPs and 7s)

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Yeah you're right sorry. Guess I looked at him checking back the river.

Six Hurdles said:

Because he didn't raise on the flop I'm putting him on a flush draw or weak King. If he's got a K he's scared of giving you what amounts to a free card there so he's raising (if he's any good at all). If he's got a weak king he's probably not calling a second barrel. I'm betting here slightly less than 1/2 pot bet. If he calls just check the river and, based on the action, he should probably check behind unless he hit the flush. Since I have him on the flush draw I don't feel bad about folding there.

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Wow my eyes must be going. I thought that the k on the flop was a spade. It's not Disregard anything I said. Wow, how embarrassing.

Check/r flop. bet turn. shove river.

c/r flop? wtf are you thinking?

REI53 said:

Check/r flop. bet turn. shove river.

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Lol wat?

Check turn, bet fold river when the queen pairs for value from mid pocket pairs.

With the villain being a loose player you should avoid bluffing because they're always going to end up calling you down. Also, the betting line you chose showed weakness, but that falls in line with small hand = small pot. To make it look like a made hand you'd have to bet every street, but reserve that for tighter villains.