$5 NLHE 6-max: TT facing jam on flop vs Lag Fish with another Lag fish to act..

R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Firstly, before anyone asks about me flatting, the reason are as follows. I've 3bet this guy a ton before and he's 4bet like 50bb etc which I've had to fold....I also had KK roughly 10hands prior to this hand which I 5bet jammed after he 4bet 50bb again - however he folded lol..

I feel in position, TT vs him is going to be fine as I've seen him blow away 3 100-150BB stacks so far to someone else(the MP player 500bb), with absolute air + random under pairs and all sorts!

However, we also have someone left to act, he's also a fishy lag calling station with like a 40/10 so...seems quite passive...in general..but he's also renowned for flatting 3bets etc OOP and calling weird stuff.. I've had these two in 3bet pots before..and had to fold a few times because of my position and their bet sizing on wet flops.

I guess I kind of put myself in this spot..but.. couldn't think of the best way to play this...

This time though, I'm unsure..of what I should do...thoughts?

Option 1: Fold
Options 2: ISO jam

There the only two options I can think off - I'm almost certain I'm good vs the shover..but pfft..horrible spot.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($27.80)
CO ($4.91)
Hero (Button) ($22.43)
SB ($6.08)
BB ($12.50)
UTG ($25.23)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10
heart.gif
, 10
spade.gif

2 folds, CO bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, BB calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.32) 5
heart.gif
, 8
club.gif
, 3
heart.gif
(3 players)
BB checks, CO bets $4.81 (All-In), Hero ?
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
Ye I agree with baudib. And obv if BB just flats you shove turn
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Tree bet preflop. Especially given the recent history.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
I'm asking for post flop, not pre flop opinions ;)

History told me not to 3bet a hand like TT vs these two play, as TT doesn't play very well in 3bet pots with two LAG's to act on the flop.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
1. These aren't LAGs, they're fish.
2. We don't know if bb comes along if we 3bet
3. We have position
4. CO thinks we're bullying him which means he might go ape shit and call or raise with a wider range
5. They're fish
6. We have position

Seems alright to me
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0

How many times do we fold TT when the flop comes down much worse than this?

I mean, like I said - I've seen these guys stacking, 3betting/4betting wiht all sorts of random hands. More times than not, we're never going to get a flop where we hold an over pair.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
How many times do we fold TT when the flop comes down much worse than this?

I mean, like I said - I've seen these guys stacking, 3betting/4betting wiht all sorts of random hands. More times than not, we're never going to get a flop where we hold an over pair.
You know you don't have to have an overpair to see a showdown? If I had to pick one villain type to see a showdown with 2nd pair in a 3-bet pot, it would absolutely be this one: bad maniac.

So 40% of the time we're gonna have an overpair, we'll flop a set 12%, we'll get a Jxx or Qxx flop fairly often and we're in position and we can control the pot size to make bluff catching less expensive. Just because once in a while a flop will come AKX and we fold doesn't make 3-betting pre unprofitable.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
1. These aren't LAGs, they're fish.
2. We don't know if bb comes along if we 3bet
3. We have position
4. CO thinks we're bullying him which means he might go ape shit and call or raise with a wider range
5. They're fish
6. We have position

Seems alright to me

They are fishy, but they are also very laggy..,

As I said if you read the previous posts, he comes along the vast majority of the times to a 3bet. CO has no reason to think we're bullying him, I've folded a ton of hands before where he's gone ape shoving etc, he's no reason to think I'm going to make a stand this time.We have position on the first LAG, not the second.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
You know you don't have to have an overpair to see a showdown? If I had to pick one villain type to see a showdown with 2nd pair in a 3-bet pot, it would absolutely be this one: bad maniac.

Vs one yeah I agree, even without an over pair, I'd snap call his jam everytime with TT here if this is HU, it's the one left to act I'm going to find the problem with.

I just don't think on most boards (we're lucky this time around with the board having no overs) but more times than not, when we 3bet TT the boards going to always nearly have a wetter board or over cards on which one of these LAG's is likely to have a piece and I just don't think in general 3bet pot vs two maniacs even if they are fishis is going to have a lot of equity when all in vs two on the flop.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
he comes along the vast majority of the times to a 3bet.
Great! We have a Sklansky group 2 hand! Certainly better than the garbage he's calling with.

CO has no reason to think we're bullying him, I've folded a ton of hands before where he's gone ape shoving etc, he's no reason to think I'm going to make a stand this time.
So doesn't that mean we're going to get 4-bet more often (which is a good thing, in case you don't realize that).

Idk, this seems like the type of villain where its blatantly obvious to 3-bet wider for value. If you're not 3-betting TT against these guys, then how the hell are you extending your range beyond your normal one? Or are you one of those nits that never 3-bets JJ or AK?
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Great! We have a Sklansky group 2 hand! Certainly better than the garbage he's calling with.

So doesn't that mean we're going to get 4-bet more often (which is a good thing, in case you don't realize that).

Idk, this seems like the type of villain where its blatantly obvious to 3-bet wider for value. If you're not 3-betting TT against these guys, then how the hell are you extending your range beyond your normal one? Or are you one of those nits that never 3-bets JJ or AK?

CO has 4bet spazzed before like for 50bb and I've had to fold hands..I also said before, I 5bet jammed KK vs CO and he snap folded earlier.

I'm far from a nit, I've been 3betting with a wider range of hands which will play better post flop than their calling range and I'm happy getting TT AIPF with him, the problem is, if I 3bet pre, one of two things happens, CO will elect to 4bet (50bb pre) (I don't mind 5bet jamming TT here btw) OR a more likely re occurring pattern is..I 3bet and get called by CO along with BB meaning we have a bloated pot when on most flops TT is going to have to hit a 2outter to be happy getting it in with vs these two even if their range is so wide, even if their calling wide is like 30-40% which is very possible TT is going to likely have less equity than vs these two in the pot on the vast majority of flops.

I'd much prefer 3betting a hand that has some connecting/flush value (like K,Q/J,T) which will play better than just TT 3way. Besides which, when we hit one of our 2 outs with TT we're going to be in a great shape.

Are you saying you are 3betting other middle pairs pre if you expect 2callers?
 
Last edited:
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Now you're just talking in circles, and you're still wrong.

And if you're consistently getting 2 callers, you're not 3-betting big enough.

And yeah, I'd prolly 3-bet 99 as well, especially if this guy is doing something as retarded as 4-betting to 50bb's and then folding.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
I reckon more times than not you will be in tons of worse spots where a board comes down wet + has over cards & you have an active jammer with one left to act.

I'm not three betting big enough? Ok - you tell me a size I should be 3betting too with TT in this spot and when you tell me the size, I'll tell you what I have been raising too and we'll compare to see if I've actually not been 3betting big enough..


"as played" though like the subject said, what do we do on the flop (not pre, I already had my reasons for flatting, it's far to easy to say "3 bet pre" when you can see the flops) - so your thoughts post ?
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
Firstly, before anyone asks about me flatting, the reason are as follows. I've 3bet this guy a ton before and he's 4bet like 50bb etc which I've had to fold....I also had KK roughly 10hands prior to this hand which I 5bet jammed after he 4bet 50bb again - however he folded lol..

This is exactly why TT is a brilliant hand to 3bet/stack here AINEC.
If someone is 4betting light TT is a great hand to 5bet.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
I feel in position, TT vs him is going to be fine as I've seen him blow away 3 100-150BB stacks so far to someone else(the MP player 500bb), with absolute air + random under pairs and all sorts!

This is why I call. That and his 50bb 4bet folds lol. The deep BB is a concern, it's not going to be nice if he shoves on us given your read he's passive. If he could feasibly do this with 99 or flush draws it's a call/call otherwise call/fold.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
They are fishy, but they are also very laggy..,

As I said if you read the previous posts, he comes along the vast majority of the times to a 3bet. CO has no reason to think we're bullying him, I've folded a ton of hands before where he's gone ape shoving etc, he's no reason to think I'm going to make a stand this time.We have position on the first LAG, not the second.

What do you mean he has no reason to think you're trying to bully him? Did you not say

I've 3bet this guy a ton before and he's 4bet like 50bb etc which I've had to fold...

3betting people a lot makes them mad, believe me. Seriously, I used to rage about it.
We have position on the first LAG, not the second
No, we have position on both, we're on the button right?

I'd much prefer 3betting a hand that has some connecting/flush value (like K,Q/J,T) which will play better than just TT 3way. Besides which, when we hit one of our 2 outs with TT we're going to be in a great shape.

If you're expecting villain to call very wide, then you want to 3bet a wider value range, TT would be included. If you're expecting both to call and aren't comfortable with it, just 3bet to an amount where you think one of them won't call. I don't know but I'd be really happy if I were you in this situation. You have two stations who love to call 3bets with shit hands and you want to just flat a good value hand?

(not pre, I already had my reasons for flatting, it's far to easy to say "3 bet pre" when you can see the flops)
With or without seeing the flop, I'm pretty sure I'd still want to 3bet pre given the reads you gave. We think we found a problem preflop so just because you "had [your] reasons for flatting" doesn't mean they're correct. Bad and/or awkward situations usually happen because of the preceding action(s) and this could be one of those times, don't ignore this.

as played though I'd call because the guy has spazzed in the past and I don't give him credit for a big hand here
 
Top