$5 NLHE 6-max: Trying to c/r bluff villains Cbet on a low dry board after he 3bets

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
$5 NLHE 6-max: Trying to c/r bluff villains Cbet on a low dry board after he 3bets

Is this spewy? This was kind of a weird spot trying to be aggressive against an overly aggressive player.

I checked the flop because I knew he was going to cbet, and then raised his cbet for two reasons; one, it was weak and undersized and two, the board totally missed his range, and I figured a c/r looks very strong and represents a pocket pair. thinking i could take down the pot pretty easy here.

When he called the flop I assumed maybe he had a pocket pair, so I checked to him on the turn, but the fact that he checked back on the turn kind of made me think that maybe he didnt have a pocket pair.

iPoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 114 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 16)
Hero (CO): 143.2 BB
BTN: 118 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 29.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
SB: 174.6 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 18.18, Hands: 27)
BB: 145.6 BB (VPIP: 46.43, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:heart: A:spade:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 8:diamond: 6:spade: 3:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets 9 BB, Hero raises to 25 BB, BTN calls 16 BB

Turn: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 6:club:
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 2:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 36.6 BB Hero...?

Im thinking villain is totally drawing dead, does hero call with ace kicker, king second kicker? :confused:
 
J

Jreece18

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Total posts
306
Chips
0
I think calling 3bets OOP is a bad idea. I'd prefer 4bet or fold, but that's quite villain dependent to me, which is hard when you have 24 hands on him.

Looks like an overpair to me. What else do you think he's calling the c/r with? Checking back on the turn could just be pot control.. A c/r looks pretty strong. The river bet is because you've given up on the hand - I think he's ahead here. I'd fold.
 
J

Jreece18

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Total posts
306
Chips
0
Also half pot cbets in 3bet pots are standard imo. It may be slightly under half, but sometimes that's just what the 1/2 pot button does. Does on the sites I play anyway.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
4 bet pre, BTNs 3bet CO opens pretty light sometimes so it is fine to 4 bet here. AP just call flop and x/fold turn.

As for his turn check, he is probably checking his entire range on the turn for pot control so he can still bet river with QQ+ to get value from your 99-JJ that x/raised flop.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
4-bet preflop. He's going to raise you lighter than usual because it's CO vs BTN.

As played, either fold the flop, or if you take that line: bet the turn.

This line makes no sense, unless you have 97/75/54 or a weak overpair looking for pot control. I don't think he's bluffing here, since he called the flop. Those are no overcards he's holding. Fold.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
AP we should have enough equity against his range to peel flop with AK. Not saying I love it but I also don't love x/folding flop in this spot.

Regardless this should be a 4 bet pre and this spot is avoided all together. It is why flatting AK OOP kind of sucks.
 
Last edited:
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
You guys are definitely right about 4betting. Could have ended the hand before it started and took down a handful of big blinds.

I'm thinking he has enough busted draws in his range here to justify calling though. AK only needs to be good 25% of the time, and I can see him playing this line with Ax clubs, AK for a split, KQs maybe even as wide as KTs+ or KQo. But that's a stretch. I definitely don't think he hit the board with anything other than A8, A6, or A3. As far as hands that beat us is basically pocket pairs and I think there are enough busted draws in his range that he's bluffing with to justify calling.

I definitely messed up by flatting pre and that tells him I don't have that many pocket pairs in my range so it makes my check raise on the flop look like a bluff. So he might be calling really light here if he's a thinking opponent. Which his stats indicate he seems to be. (so I guess that answers the part about the c/r as a bluff)

Definitely not a spot I want to be in in the future, and ill avoid this spot by 4betting pre next time.

If I do 4bet pre, would you guys recommend folding to a 5bet?
 
Last edited:
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
A lot of your logic is wrong in this post. The range assignment is waaaayyyyyy off and your thoughts on the villains perception of your range is kind of off too. I'll explain in more details after work if someone else doesn't.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
I'll definitely be interested to hear it. I can't remember what it was but I feel like there was some kind of extra information that helped me with my read. Maybe one of pt4's autonotes or a play he made or something. I'll double check his stats as they appeared on my HUD and look at some of his previous plays when I get home from work.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Isn’t your overly aggressive villain having zero 3bet%?
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
Isn’t your overly aggressive villain having zero 3bet%?

In 24 hands, how many good chances did he really have to 3bet?

I'm pretty sure there was something that gave me the impression he was very aggressive, like an unusually high AFq or an auto-note that said he bet turn turn aggressively on a draw or something. I can't remember exactly so I'll have to check when I get home. Does pt4 save autonotes or do you have to click save?
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
4 bet pre and probably shrug GII pre if you must. Check raising the flop and checking the turn really makes no sense, what're you repping? If we check-raise the flop I think we need to just go with it. Giving up after we're calling OTT is just way too costly.

4-bet pre and this hand plays completely differently. Probably fold river I guess cause wtf does he have too...
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Don't fold to a 5bet I don't think
 
J

Jreece18

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Total posts
306
Chips
0
Yea you're giving him such a wide range. You think the average 5nl player is 3betting Ax or KQs? Definitely not. You can't put an unknown on this kind of range. If he's 3betting wide CO vs BTN, it'd be a polarised range, 3betting hands like 67s, etc. But once again, you can't know this from 24 hands. KQs is not in his range. You can't put him on that with such little info on the player. I put an unknown on AQo+, QQ+. Better to be safe than sorry.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Is this spewy? This was kind of a weird spot trying to be aggressive against an overly aggressive player.

I checked the flop because I knew he was going to cbet, and then raised his cbet for two reasons; one, it was weak and undersized and two, the board totally missed his range, and I figured a c/r looks very strong and represents a pocket pair. thinking i could take down the pot pretty easy here.

When he called the flop I assumed maybe he had a pocket pair, so I checked to him on the turn, but the fact that he checked back on the turn kind of made me think that maybe he didnt have a pocket pair.

iPoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 114 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
Hero (CO): 143.2 BB
BTN: 118 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 29.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
SB: 174.6 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 18.18, Hands: 27)
BB: 145.6 BB (VPIP: 46.43, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K<font color='red'>♥</font> A<font color='black'>♠</font>

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 6<font color='black'>♠</font> 3<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 9 BB, Hero raises to 25 BB, BTN calls 16 BB

Turn: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 6<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 36.6 BB Hero...?

Im thinking villain is totally drawing dead, does hero call with ace kicker, king second kicker? :confused:


As played (after C/R flop), jam turn.

After the c/r, you gotta follow through (goofy line though, so we have a set, or 99+, cause that's what we're trying to sell). Bomb turn AI. Go out guns blazing lol. But villains at these stakes aren't laying down 99+ here. Some of these guys may call off with A-high themselves (best thing you could hope for).

If you are gonna c/r, you should have a plan. Sounds like you didn't think past the c/r. Your plan should be unloading. You should already know that when you pull the trigger OTF.


However, if we play this hand, there are 2 ways:

1. We 4b pre. 4b to about 25 BB, and we are unloading the clip postflop (assuming V flats 4b). We will be able to define V's range more clearly with this line, but at a steep price. Ultra high variance, spewy, and not really necessary to beat these stakes. I think it's kinda cray, but effective. But be prepared to flush a buy-in. But when it backfires, yeah it sucks.

2. Play the hand passive. Call the 3b, peek at the flop, and c/f. We can get him next time. We can't win every single hand we play. Money saved, is money earned.

You guys will probably crucify me for saying so, but why can't we just c/f the flop here as played? We have nothing, board is not good for us in any way.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
I agree bean, a c/f is perfectly fine too haha.

And you're absolutely right, I didn't think ahead when I pulled the trigger on the flop. I kind of assumed I'd just take it down nice and easy right there.

If we 4bet pre to 25bb, then the pot on the flop would be about 51.4bb. Why not just go for 75% bet and bet 35bb? It would be low enough where we can still back out if he raises and save some money, but high enough where he either has it and shoves behind or he doesn't and folds, right?

As far as assigning him a wide range, I'm still thinking we can take him off a lot of hands that beat us when he checked the turn. Like yeah he *could* be checking for pot control, but I'm pretty sure that most of the time he's firing with most pocket pairs on the turn. Maybe its really dependant on the villain, which is why I'm really interested to get home and go over his stats again to see why I thought he was so aggressive.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
stats on villain:
Code:
VPIP: 29 (7/24)
PFR: 29 (7/24)
AFq: 17 (1/6)
3bet Pre: 0 (0/6)
Cbet: 50 (1/2)
F Cbet: 100 (2/2)
WWSF: 0 (0/5)
WTSD: 40 (2/5)
WSD: 0 (0/2)
BB/100: -306

I realize the small sample isnt very telling, but some of the stats that stand out to me and seem relevant are the VP/PFR, the AFq, and the show down stats. out of 5 hands that saw the flop, he lost all five, and burned a large chunk of chips pretty quick

Now that I'm home and looking at the stats, Im not sure what I was looking at that made me think he is aggressive. these stats show that he is spewy preflop and very bad/passive post-flop. which makes a lot more sense.

poker tracker auto-notes:
Code:
[P] Called 2Bet from blinds range {66} (1)


Villain had:
Q7 clubs
he's now 0/6


moral of the story/what i hopefully learned:
4bet pre
and dont mistake passive players for aggressive players.
and follow through when needed in order to tell a convincing story.
or just fold.
and always play with bad fish so you can get away with this kinda crap.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
You guys will probably crucify me for saying so, but why can't we just c/f the flop here as played? We have nothing, board is not good for us in any way.
Nah, I agree. Even said so:

As played, either fold the flop, or if you take that line: bet the turn.


If we 4bet pre to 25bb, then the pot on the flop would be about 51.4bb. Why not just go for 75% bet and bet 35bb? It would be low enough where we can still back out if he raises and save some money, but high enough where he either has it and shoves behind or he doesn't and folds, right?
We're not really backing out if he raises, though. AKo still has 39% equity vs QQ+/AK.

But I agree that 3-betting to 33-ish BB and shoving any flop is also going to be a viable strategy.

and the show down stats.
Those are irrelevant after a mere 24 hands.

Villain had:
LOL

and always play with bad fish so you can get away with this kinda crap.
Exactly! :top:
 
Last edited:
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
4b 36bb pre... lead out flop 3/4.. win uncontested pots most times
 
Top