$5 NLHE 6-max: So I flatted QQ pre...

bgomez89

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.25
SB: $5.42
BB: $2.04
UTG: $3.08
Hero (MP): $5.31

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q:heart: Q:club:

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BTN raises to $0.45, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97, 2 players) 7:spade: T:spade: Q:spade:
Hero checks

villain is a 16/9 with a 5% 3bet over 150 hands. I'm pretty sure i'm going to get a lot of "4bet pre," so i guess i should explain myself. Even thought i'm OOP, If I 4bet this preflop, most likely he's going to fold and if he's not folding he's probably 5bet shoving. If he's 5betting, is he doing it with worse than QQ?

I would think that most of the time he'd only be doing that with AA/KK, so by flatting preflop he still has a ton of stuff I beat in his range. I don't know if this is correct thinking so feel free to chime in and explain why I should 4bet preflop.
 
nabmom

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What's the thinking behind the 4-bet PF? In that situation, like you said, wouldn't we scare off anyone with a weaker hand and just get stacked by someone with a better hand? (I'm a FR player so I get that the play is more aggr in 6-max).

I'm curious about the flop (I guess you can ignore this question if you want to focus on your pre-flop play). Why did you check? What's the thinking on betting OOP when you were the first to raise in the pot but you get 3-bet? What were you hoping the villain would do after you checked?
 
bgomez89

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Villain 3 bet me so i was checking to him so he could fire off a cbet and I could raise. I guess a case could be made for donk betting here but i didn't
 
straytfrush

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You want to lead out post flop with maybe a 1/2 pot probe bet to see where you stand. If you check to him you may be controlling the pot size but you really dont gain any information. If he bets it could be because he has something or he's cbetting and senses weakness from you. Without leading out you really don't know what he has. If you check and he bets what do you do?
 
No Brainer

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Why do we want to see where we stand? He has about 4 combinations of hands that are ahead of here max.

His range could look something like TT+,AJs+,KQs,AKo

and out of that he might be folding JJ and any non pair hand without a spade to a pot sized bet.

Any hand with a spade and he is drawing so we want to make him pay for that shit. He is shoving over our c bet with any two spade hand which there are 4 of in that range and AA, KK, TT which there are 15 combinations of, so even calling a shove here is perfectly fine.

Board: 7s Ts Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.808% 24.60% 01.20% 12423 607.50 { KK+, TT, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, KsQs }
Hand 1: 74.192% 72.99% 01.20% 36852 607.50 { QQ }


Get stacks in!!
 
bgomez89

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can you be a little more specific as to what you want me to read? I've read it before...
If he bets it could be because he has something or he's cbetting and senses weakness from you. Without leading out you really don't know what he has. If you check and he bets what do you do?

I have a good idea as to what he has and if he bets i'm definitely raising like i said before.

I'll post the rest of the flop action/turn action later when I can find the HH and have you guys give me your input on that
 
WVHillbilly

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If you're going to play it this way, I really like leading the flop because I think you're going to get raised a lot since he must be super tight to not 4bet preflop. I think leading looks weaker than ch/raising and we get him to commit more money when he raises.
 
c9h13no3

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I'd 4-bet because its $5NL and your opponents will call with stuff you beat. And since he rarely 3-bets, he likely has many hands in his range he can call with.

Assuming your 5NL opponents are so nitty that they'll fold 99/KQ type hands to a 4-bet seems like a bad assumption. I'd make this $1.10 and I'd expect to be called with pretty good frequency. Besides, you can 4-bet/call it off unexploitably with this range, so we *know* its +EV if he actually 3-bets 5% in this spot. The only reason to call is because we think its *more* +EV than 4-betting, and I don't think that's obviously the case OOP with a hand that can have over cards hit.

As played, you kinda need to check this flop because:

1) 16/9's aren't the type to raise [As]X or stuff like that, typically.
2) You flatted preflop because you wanted to get more $ in when his range was wide, and letting him c-bet accomplishes this. So stick with your preflop plan and CRAI IMO.

You guize need to stop being paranoid of a spade hitting the turn, which only happens 1 out of 4 times.


EDIT - And Hold'em Manager's "Facing a preflop 3-bet chart", just in case you couldn't find it:

3-bet percentage you need to be facing in order to 4-bet/call off.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher
 
Last edited:
bgomez89

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I think you're going to get raised a lot since he must be super tight to not 4bet preflop.

sorry I don't get this part

Here's the turn action as promised:


PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.25
SB: $5.42
BB: $2.04
UTG: $3.08
Hero (MP): $5.31

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q:heart: Q:club:

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BTN raises to $0.45, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97, 2 players) 7:spade: T:spade: Q:spade:
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.97, 2 players) J:heart:
Hero bets $0.65, BTN raises to $2.00, Hero ???
 
Last edited:
WVHillbilly

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You can't edit the 1st post/title but I can. If there is a major reason to do so let me know.
 
Pascal-lf

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You want to lead out post flop with maybe a 1/2 pot probe bet to see where you stand. If you check to him you may be controlling the pot size but you really dont gain any information. If he bets it could be because he has something or he's cbetting and senses weakness from you. Without leading out you really don't know what he has. If you check and he bets what do you do?

Ignore this ^^ (don't bet to see where you stand, ever ever)

Don't mind either CR or leading out, if he has a low cbet% in 3bet pots then obviously leading is better but check raising is pretty standard especially if he's likely to bluff at it at lot.

Turns a pretty sick card because when he raises the majority of his range is like AK or JJ (and in my experience a lot of nits don't like 3betting jacks pre) with a few flopped nuts thrown in...
 
REI53

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LOL...u played this hand like u aren't suppose to play in any of the streets. 4bet pf, cbet (big). Don't know what to do in that turn tbh, but probabilly i would check call, and fold river (unless we hit the fh or 4ok).
 
c9h13no3

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I just want to say that I'm glad you didn't post the results, because a J on the turn would absolutely make me think donking the flop is the best play.

I suppose our hand is really vulnerable, and 5% 3-bet is still a pretty strong range, so donking the flop does have a lot of merit.

Once the turn hits, omfg, I think I just vomit.
 
vanquish

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1) 16/9's aren't the type to raise A♠X or stuff like that, typically.
2) You flatted preflop because you wanted to get more $ in when his range was wide, and letting him c-bet accomplishes this. So stick with your preflop plan and CRAI IMO.



this was my thought process
 
bgomez89

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LOL...u played this hand like u aren't suppose to play in any of the streets. 4bet pf, cbet (big). Don't know what to do in that turn tbh, but probabilly i would check call, and fold river (unless we hit the fh or 4ok).

is it cool that i ignore this post?
 
Pascal-lf

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is it cool that i ignore this post?

Yeah it's fine. If you're cool 4bet getting it in pre against this guy then do it (and obv c-bet the very few times he ever decides to flat a 4bet), but you can just choose to setmine/stacked off on low flops if you think he 3bets 99/TT/JJ OOP, you've got odds.
 
rssurfer54

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dude i ignore every post that isn't by like c9, belgo, chuck or like 3 other people.


i sometimes even ignore my own posts.


+1. Although you will probably ignore this...
 
No Brainer

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EDIT - And Hold'em Manager's "Facing a preflop 3-bet chart", just in case you couldn't find it:

3-bet percentage you need to be facing in order to 4-bet/call off.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher


Is this hidden in the depths of HEM somewhere?
 
c9h13no3

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Is this hidden in the depths of HEM somewhere?
Open HEM--> Articles --> Article 4) Facing a Preflop 3-bet

At the end of the article. Preflop cash game poker is getting pretty close to a solved game.
 
Pascal-lf

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Only problem is sample size as 3betting takes a long time to converge.
 
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