$5 NLHE 6-max: Right to check the river with K high flush?

mbrenneman0

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iPoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 145.8 BB (VPIP: 79.73, PFR: 18.92, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, hands: 78)
Hero (BB): 200.2 BB
UTG: 127.2 BB (VPIP: 21.95, PFR: 19.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
MP: 115 BB (VPIP: 30.56, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 36)
CO: 27.4 BB (VPIP: 52.27, PFR: 11.36, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 44)
BTN: 60.2 BB (VPIP: 32.56, PFR: 2.33, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 44)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:diamond: 4:spade:

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) Q:diamond: 9:diamond: K:spade:
Hero checks, MP checks

Turn: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond:
Hero bets 4 BB, MP calls 4 BB

River: (14.4 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
Hero checks, MP checks



My logic in checking is that he is probably only calling a bet here with A high flush. i think maybe i could have tried for thing value, but it looked like he was drawing dead entirely.
 
IPlay

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I would bet like 30-50% pot on river.
 
6

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I would definitely bet the river, probably about 80% pot, with the intention of folding to any decent sized raise.

My logic in checking is that he is probably only calling a bet here with A high flush. i think maybe i could have tried for thing value, but it looked like he was drawing dead entirely.

I disagree with this. If anything, I think it's the opposite. The villain can call this bet with any diamond at all. He can even hero call with top pair no diamond. But he's going to have a hard time betting with anything worse than the Ace of diamonds. Perhaps he'll make a tiny bet with the Jd or Td, but that's about it. You'll get far more value by betting this river yourself.

To be honest though, I don't know why we're calling preflop out of position with K4o. The way you played this hand was very passive overall. Preflop you should be aiming to raise or fold, rather than call. You should take the betting initiative and try to squeeze out as much value as possible. You're not going to win money by playing passively like this.

EDIT: I think I know why you called preflop. Your logic was probably something along the lines of "I've already thrown 1bb out there, it's only 2bb more to call and there'll be almost 7bb in the pot". But this is actually a really destructive mentality to have. As tempting as it may be to call, you need to be folding your blinds a lot more. It's actually better to invest 3bb from the BTN (calling in position) than to call 2bb from the BB, because your postflop advantage from playing in position will be worth far more than the extra 1bb you had to spend. So practice folding your blinds more and playing your BTN more. Position really matters. Being out of position makes life a lot more difficult for you.
 
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proud2Bwhack

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You could get called with a jack high flush, two pair, and there is a striaght on the board. If your plan is to fold to a RR, then make the bet smaller 40-50% of the pot.
 
TimovieMan

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what do you suppose would call?
Every flush, and every made hand that thinks you're bluffing.

The nut flush will raise, and none of the bluffcatchers will dare try that. Easy bet/fold situation.


Edit: fold preflop - when we were talking about defending your blinds less often, this is exactly such a spot!
 
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Trabendo_daze

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Probably fold pre-. And definitely bet river with the second nuts. We can consider bet-folding but yeah
 
mbrenneman0

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So you guys think he's checking behind with a flush or straight? I think he's betting with a wider range than he's calling with. I even have a hard time seeing him call with a low flush if I bet here.

I do agree though, fold pre is probably best. But I was actually folding way more hands from the blinds than I usually do. This hand was kind of the exception. I think it was that my image was kind of tight and wanted to get a looser image, but I can't remember exactly why I played it.
 
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So you guys think he's checking behind with a flush or straight? I think he's betting with a wider range than he's calling with. I even have a hard time seeing him call with a low flush if I bet here.

Yes. The villain is never going to bet a straight or set on a 4 to flush board, and he probably won't bet a weak flush either. Why would he bet these weak hands here when he's closing the action and can see showdown for free? He doesn't want to get check-raised and forced to fold his equity. These hands are all bluff catchers that want to reach showdown as cheaply as possible.

The only reason to check-call the river here was if you believed that most of the villain's range would be complete bluffs, but we can safely assume that that's not the case after he called the turn bet. The villain has far more bluff catchers in his range than he does bluffs and thus it's better to bet than check-call.
 
mbrenneman0

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okay, i think i understand that logic, but i still have a hard time seeing him call with anything but the nuts unless he thinks im bluffing, but i dont think there's any reason for him to think that.
 
6

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Think of it from the villain's perspective: you have a weak diamond on a 4 diamond board. Someone bets 80% pot into you. That means that you're getting 2.6 to 1 odds on a call and only need to win the pot 30% of the time to justify a call. With a diamond in your hand and 4 diamonds on the board, there are only 8 diamonds left in the deck of the 45 remaining cards, and you might even beat some of these diamonds. You can assume that your opponent will take a stab at the pot with his air at least some portion of the time in the hopes that you don't have a diamond. When your opponent bets into you, his range looks somewhat polarised in the sense that he's probably not betting a straight or set, so even your top pair hand could be good here. And you only need to be right 30% of the time to justify a call. Would you call with a weak flush?
 
IPlay

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Every flush, and every made hand that thinks you're bluffing.

The nut flush will raise, and none of the bluffcatchers will dare try that. Easy bet/fold situation.


Edit: fold preflop - when we were talking about defending your blinds less often, this is exactly such a spot!

Yup, villains at this stake will almost never raise this river as a bluff when you bet 30-50% pot because they are afraid you might be making a milking bet with the nuts. On the other hand they are going to call with their little flushes for that sizing because "I'm priced in!" Even good players are calling with the 10 and J of diamonds.

Think of it from the villain's perspective: you have a weak diamond on a 4 diamond board. Someone bets 80% pot into you. That means that you're getting 2.6 to 1 odds on a call and only need to win the pot 30% of the time to justify a call. With a diamond in your hand and 4 diamonds on the board, there are only 8 diamonds left in the deck of the 45 remaining cards, and you might even beat some of these diamonds. You can assume that your opponent will take a stab at the pot with his air at least some portion of the time in the hopes that you don't have a diamond. When your opponent bets into you, his range looks somewhat polarised in the sense that he's probably not betting a straight or set, so even your top pair hand could be good here. And you only need to be right 30% of the time to justify a call. Would you call with a weak flush?

I would snap fold here. One thing to call a stab bet but calling 80% pot on a 4 flush board with a weak flush is going to be spew pretty often.
 
mbrenneman0

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Yup, villains at this stake will almost never raise this river as a bluff when you bet 30-50% pot because they are afraid you might be making a milking bet with the nuts. On the other hand they are going to call with their little flushes for that sizing because "I'm priced in!" Even good players are calling with the 10 and J of diamonds..

Makes a lot of sense the way you explained it. Thanks guys
 
Beanfacekilla

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Yo.

Fold pre. Really.

Yes, as played, bet 1/2 pot OTR. If dude raises, I wouldn't call.
 
mbrenneman0

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You could say this in every thread the guy posts. Dunno why people are willing to give him advice, he clearly doesn't heed it.
I only post my best hands on here
 
Beanfacekilla

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EDIT: I think I know why you called preflop. Your logic was probably something along the lines of "I've already thrown 1bb out there, it's only 2bb more to call and there'll be almost 7bb in the pot". But this is actually a really destructive mentality to have. As tempting as it may be to call, you need to be folding your blinds a lot more. It's actually better to invest 3bb from the BTN (calling in position) than to call 2bb from the BB, because your postflop advantage from playing in position will be worth far more than the extra 1bb you had to spend. So practice folding your blinds more and playing your BTN more. Position really matters. Being out of position makes life a lot more difficult for you.

I like this. Very well said.
So you guys think he's checking behind with a flush or straight? I think he's betting with a wider range than he's calling with. I even have a hard time seeing him call with a low flush if I bet here.

I do agree though, fold pre is probably best. But I was actually folding way more hands from the blinds than I usually do. This hand was kind of the exception. I think it was that my image was kind of tight and wanted to get a looser image, but I can't remember exactly why I played it.

Why do you want a looser image? Why would you choose to make an exception with this hand, K-4o?

At these stakes, we don't need to worry too much about image, balancing ranges, your 3b ranges, blah blah. Most of the players are not going to be strong players. Simple ABC fundamental poker is more than enough to beat this game. But you must have the discipline to play proper, correct, fundamentally sound poker.

I have been working at this for years. Poker takes a ton of patience and discipline. Ego should be checked at the door. Make good decisions, time and time again, and you will be rewarded over the long term with profit.

K-4o is a terrible hand, it's hardly ever going to flop well (like almost never).

If you have holdem manager 2, or poker tracker 4, you could actually look up your win/loss record from blinds. If you did this, you would realize that everyone loses from the blinds. This is why you must play tight from them, so we can minimize the inevitable losses that we face from the blinds.

You shouldn't be calling with very much from the blinds. Hands to play are PPS (to set-mine), and premiums that you expect to be ahead of whatever V is raising with. But in general, we should always be very conservative from the blinds. You shouldn't be completing even SB with anything less than premiums or PPs.


I don't care what the price is. If UTG opens to 3x, and every player calls to you in the BB, you still shouldn't be calling unless you have a good hand (and in that case, perhaps 3b is in order, based on game dynamics).



And no, V is not betting BS, weak flushes, sets, 2p very often on this river. He will look to make it to SD cheap with most of what we are beating. But he will call to bluff-catch. He will call with inferior flushes, sets, 2p maybe even, if you bet smallish.

You played this hand super passive. Now you actually rivered a good hand, and you don't even bet when you get there? You need to get some value. I don't care how you got there, bet river. Fold to a raise.


Lastly:

I would recommend you get or make a starting hand chart. Follow this chart, no matter what, at least for a while. If you can't even stick to strict starting hand requirements, your game and discipline need work.


I am not one for 6-max, but full ring, I can list some raising ranges...

Raising ranges
EP 10-10+, A-Qs+

MP 10-10+, A-Js+, A-Qo+, K-Qs+

LP 8-8+, A2-A5s, A-10+, A-10s+, K-Qo, K-Jo, 8-9s+ (for SCs), and suited gappers J-9s+

Super tight, but it's for full ring. Make yourself something like this for 6-max, and stick to it. As your game improves, add more hands (in LP first). We play ultra nit mode until we see some success. Then we start opening range, a little at a time.


One key point I feel like I should hammer home:

Position is everything. Position is very important. Stop playing loose when OOP.
 
Beanfacekilla

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You could say this in every thread the guy posts. Dunno why people are willing to give him advice, he clearly doesn't heed it.


This is a forum. People are here to help each other. Even if he doesn't take advice, or whatever, I will still offer my input.

It helps me. It helps others who read it. It helps others who participate. It helps all of us learn.


I have problems with discipline myself. Tilt. I have problems staying on A-game when stuck. I know stuff, but I don't always execute while I am at the table. Talking about it helps me to get closer and closer to playing mistake free.

And I feel somewhat useful when I contribute. I had a shitty session today, and I've been running like a 70 year old car with sugar in the gas tank. I need to get my mind right, cause I am starting to accumulate some frustrated, tilty emotions. It makes me feel better to try and help others, even if I can't help myself.
 
TimovieMan

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I have problems with discipline myself. Tilt. I have problems staying on A-game when stuck. I know stuff, but I don't always execute while I am at the table. Talking about it helps me to get closer and closer to playing mistake free.

...

It makes me feel better to try and help others, even if I can't help myself.
I can relate to this. My weakness is getting distracted and auto-piloting, not thinking my decisions through. I compensate somewhat by not tilting, but when auto-piloting, I practically turn into a calling station (I think it's a remnant from the limit days).

If I played at the same level as I post, I'd have moved up in stakes already. As it is, I almost busted my roll.

Talking on the forums improves my general play, and improves my A-game. Should I fail at focusing and start auto-piloting again, I hope this'll also help in improving my auto-pilot play, so I'm less of a spewmonkey then.


Then again, forums got me to where I got in my limit days as well. Powerful tool for improving, imo.
 
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mbrenneman0

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I do really appreciate the range advice guys. Please understand though that the 14 hands I've posted on these forums are not representative of all the hands I've played. Although I do have a history of playing far too loose. I have tightened up considerably and advice like this encourages me to tighten up. Today I had a 2 hour session with 250 hands where my VP/PFR was 25/20. Which I think is perfectly acceptable in 6max.

The hands I post here are a small sample of the more marginal spots or difficult choices that I've encountered and it so happens that I encounter marginal spots or difficult choices more often when I play marginal hands oop than I do when I follow good hand selection (go figure). I'm not going to post the hands where I jammed pre in position against a maniac with KK. Those hands I can usually figure out on my own what I did right or wrong.

So id prefer to see responses that deal with my question than responses that just say "fold pre" although the best responses are the ones that say "fold pre" AND also deal with my specific question as played.

Again, I don't want to sound like a know it all or anything. I really am appreciative of all your input. Usually when I argue back, its not to so I can be right but is to show my thought process and better understand why you guys are saying the things you're saying.

That being said, I have tried playing with a hand range chart, and ended up playing worse than without it.
 
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