$5 NLHE 6-max: QQ on K high flop

nykaktak · Apr 29, 2014

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $11.78 (VPIP: 57.16, PFR: 21.91, 3Bet Preflop: 9.00, hands: 150)
MP: $6.29 (VPIP: 19.65, PFR: 15.12, 3Bet Preflop: 3.67, Hands: 2,179)
CO: $7.89 (VPIP: 31.96, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 1.12, Hands: 79)
Hero (BTN): $11.56
SB: $2.77 (VPIP: 24.91, PFR: 14.42, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 101)
BB: $6.00 (VPIP: 21.27, PFR: 17.13, 3Bet Preflop: 3.99, Hands: 699)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q♠ Q♦

UTG raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15, Hero raises to $1, , UTG calls $0.75, MP calls $0.75, CO folds

Flop: ($3.15, 3 players) 7♠ 2♥ K♦
UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1.75, UTG raises to $3.50,

what would you have done here??

akaRobbo · Apr 29, 2014

Fold.

Why did you raise so much pre though? Just 3x + every caller, make it about 0.60c. You're in position and will gain complete control of the hand when you 3-bet pre OTB. Were not getting called by any worse hands if we make it $1, unless (which is very unlikely at 5NL) someone thinks you're squeezing and 4-bets you light.

Villain probably had KK, even if I held AKo UTG id probably fold it to a raise that high.

Cbet is good, just over 1/2 pot, gives us all the information we need. But yeah, were always folding this.

thatgreekdude · Apr 29, 2014

you didn't have to bet so much pre- make it around 0.60-70, c-bet is fine let's us know where we're at, villain has got some crazy stats with a 57%VPIP however i don't see him raising us with anything less than Kx as the board is super dry so i think we have to fold unless you have a read that would indicate villain is bluffing and 3 betting crazy amounts with garbage.

John A · Apr 29, 2014

Fold... he's check min raising in a multi-way 3-bet pot with 2 people left to act. Even though that's a ridiculous board and spot to do it. It could be a clue to him being bad which will fall into 1 of 2 categories... he doesn't know what to do with his mid pairs, or he just doesn't realize that's not a good spot to CR for value. I'd fold and watch his play to make that determination.

On a side note though, I would have bet at least $2 and fold to a raise. The sizing looks a little weak and could get some mid pair hands like 99-JJ to make a "raise for info" kind of play. Something micro players would do because they don't understand how to play versus a range.

c9h13no3 · May 3, 2014

akaRobbo said:
Cbet is good, just over 1/2 pot, gives us all the information we need. But yeah, were always folding this.

thatgreekdude said:
c-bet is fine let's us know where we're at

Man this hand analysis forum has gotten shitty lately.

Standard WA/WB if you ask me.

suby_rafael · May 3, 2014

Snap fold because UTG has two more players to act behind him and still he has check raised, which indicates that our queens are the second best hand. Not much to think here, the only time i would have some doubts if any if it was heads up not a multi way pot. That being said there was no need to put out a c bet when there are so many players in the pot, that was a mistake in my mind.

akaRobbo · May 3, 2014

c9h13no3 said:
Man this hand analysis forum has gotten shitty lately.

Standard WA/WB if you ask me.

If you want to check here and play passively then fine, you do that. I'm never checking here with queens after three people have checked already, what if someone (highly likely) decides to stab at it on the turn and take it down? If we think it's a bluff and we call anyway, we end up committing most likely more than half pot. Or, we fold to the turn bet, which could have been ATC, we don't know.

If no-one holds a K, we take down this pot by betting, and fold on the turn if called or raised. how are we possibly winning it if we check? Everyone Checking down to the river?

SwiftHax · May 3, 2014

c9h13no3 said:
Man this hand analysis forum has gotten shitty lately.

Standard WA/WB if you ask me.

Great post. How about a situation when you're OOP? Do you c/c the flop and c/f the turn if he bets again?

No way should you be c-betting 4-way pots. Draws will call you and you'll end up giving them a free river card being afraid of AK.

As mentioned, 3bet smaller pre-flop.

c9h13no3 · May 4, 2014

SwiftHax said:
How about a situation when you're OOP? Do you c/c the flop and c/f the turn if he bets again?

OOP it's harder, because by checking you don't get closer to showdown (villain can still put money in on every street). I probably just c-bet those WA/WB spots in most occasions, because check/calling in those spots turns your hand face up.

akaRobbo said:
I'm never checking here with queens after three people have checked already, what if someone (highly likely) decides to stab at it on the turn and take it down

Man, you're really bad at reading. Altho, we'll probably fold to most turn bets, we get closer to showdown, and induce worse hands to put money in by checking. There's really no other line here.

Also, why the hell would we 3-bet smaller preflop? We got 3 callers! If anything we should be 3-betting larger, because we want them to call the maximum.

akaRobbo · May 4, 2014

c9h13no3 said:
Man, you're really bad at reading. Altho, we'll probably fold to most turn bets, we get closer to showdown, and induce worse hands to put money in by checking. There's really no other line here.

Also, why the hell would we 3-bet smaller preflop? We got 3 callers! If anything we should be 3-betting larger, because we want them to call the maximum.

Im not even going to bother constructing a counter argument for someone who thinks im "really bad at reading" just because i'd take a different line in a micro stakes hand.

You sir, are an idiot.

If you think 3-betting 6.5x+ the initial raises in hands is good play, then do it. I hope you do.

nykaktak · May 6, 2014

well apparently I just made a mistake with the size of your bets

hffjd2000 · May 6, 2014

Run.

He has AK Im sure of it.

No point in continuing sir.

John A · May 6, 2014

c9h13no3 said:
Man this hand analysis forum has gotten shitty lately.

Standard WA/WB if you ask me.

Cruddy forum... or.... maybe.... hmmm....

You c-bet this flop because these are the two scenarios:
1) You bet, your opponents call or fold. Opponents will still call wide on the flop and MW you don't want opponents drawing because your equity is divided and thus less.
2) If you check, then you face a high probability your opponents bet 2 streets and you have no idea where you are. However if you bet the flop, you can most likely have initiative and decide to check or bet the turn, and consequently you can call, bet or fold the river depending on your opponent and sizing. Thus you control the hand and the pot size better.

Heads up... different story.

Ubercroz · May 6, 2014

John A said:
You c-bet this flop because these are the two scenarios:
1) You bet, your opponents call or fold. Opponents will still call wide on the flop and MW you don't want opponents drawing because your equity is divided and thus less.
2) If you check, then you face a high probability your opponents bet 2 streets and you have no idea where you are. However if you bet the flop, you can most likely have initiative and decide to check or bet the turn, and consequently you can call, bet or fold the river depending on your opponent and sizing. Thus you control the hand and the pot size better.

Even though you are feeding money in when you could be beaten by any Kx hand that decided not to bet (fish are passive)?

I think checking here is right. You can likely call that turn bet, and if you get fired at again (most fish are passive) then you can fold the river.

While you may face a turn and river bet, you are likely going to fold the losing hand often enough. If you DO take the initiative how does that help? if we bet and people fold we are likely losing anyway. If we get x/r then we are likely losing anyway. So a check here is probably optimal.

You mention control the pot size, but the absolute way to control pot size is to execute our advantage of position, by checking. the hands behind us won't likely improve, the hands ahead of us we won't likely beat. take it easy and use position for what its best for, making the right decision.

John A · May 7, 2014

A check is not optimal multi-way. Re-read my post. You're missing a ton of my points.

el_magiciann · May 7, 2014

The way you played the hand is exactly the way i would play it, by raising strong at the flop you get all the needed information about the villain hand so this is definitely a fold in that spot.

nykaktak · May 7, 2014

and you do not think that he could not hit the flop with a pair of JJ and just try to bluff?

OzExorcist · May 13, 2014

John A said:
1) You bet, your opponents call or fold. Opponents will still call wide on the flop and MW you don't want opponents drawing because your equity is divided and thus less.

Erm, what are your opponents drawing to in this spot? The flop is 72K rainbow, it doesn't get any more dry than that. There are no draws, which is what makes this an easy WA/WB spot.

spiderman637 · May 15, 2014

I would fold there clearly until u have a good read on the villian being a loose aggresive.....or u having a very loose image at the table
I would definitely put him on KQ,22 OR 77....more probably 22 and 77...assuming the way he raised ur bet...

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nykaktak · May 21, 2014

thanks to all for councils, I am glad what to eat love which help to understand such situations)

DunningKruger · May 22, 2014

Thanks for bumping this. I only just now read the topic.

bgomez89 · May 22, 2014

John A said:
Cruddy forum... or.... maybe.... hmmm....

You c-bet this flop because these are the two scenarios:
1) You bet, your opponents call or fold. Opponents will still call wide on the flop and MW you don't want opponents drawing because your equity is divided and thus less.
2) If you check, then you face a high probability your opponents bet 2 streets and you have no idea where you are. However if you bet the flop, you can most likely have initiative and decide to check or bet the turn, and consequently you can call, bet or fold the river depending on your opponent and sizing. Thus you control the hand and the pot size better.

Heads up... different story.

I'm still not understanding why you feel betting flop here is the best line. There's not much our opponents can draw to other than maybe sets and Ax as the board is kind of dry...

If my opponents bet two streets after my check, I can easily fold the river (unless I hit a set obv) with decent certainty that I'm behind. Not sure why you'd "have no idea where you are".

Like C9 said, this seems to be a nearly a WA/WB situation and I'm happy checking the flop.

DunningKruger · May 23, 2014

bgomez89 said:
I'm still not understanding why you feel betting flop here is the best line. There's not much our opponents can draw to other than maybe sets and Ax as the board is kind of dry...

More than kind of. It's one of only 4 possible flops in holdem where the turn cannot potentially complete a straight. Fun fact #713 heh.

bgomez89 said:
If my opponents bet two streets after my check, I can easily fold the river (unless I hit a set obv) with decent certainty that I'm behind. Not sure why you'd "have no idea where you are".

This won't fly in tougher games, but I can't say that it wouldn't maybe work at 5NL where playing your two specific cards instead of a range can prove effective and that essentially turning them face up will matter much against the daft. I wouldn't underestimate allowing your opponents to forfeit most or all of their collective equity in the pot however or overestimate the value in trying to induce bluffs from passive players.

bgomez89 said:
Like C9 said, this seems to be a nearly a WA/WB situation and I'm happy checking the flop.

Even though the concept of WA/WB is as old as dirt this might be the first time I've seen people talk about it in literally a 4 way hand.

Falcon1803 · May 23, 2014

John A said:
Fold... he's check min raising in a multi-way 3-bet pot with 2 people left to act. Even though that's a ridiculous board and spot to do it. It could be a clue to him being bad which will fall into 1 of 2 categories... he doesn't know what to do with his mid pairs, or he just doesn't realize that's not a good spot to CR for value. I'd fold and watch his play to make that determination.

On a side note though, I would have bet at least $2 and fold to a raise. The sizing looks a little weak and could get some mid pair hands like 99-JJ to make a "raise for info" kind of play. Something micro players would do because they don't understand how to play versus a range.

John, could you explain a bit further.
I think on this board QQ is a SDV hand and the bet doesn't accomplish much, given that it is a 3-bet pot and a hero could easily hold AK, KK or AA so no hand worse than Kx or set will call... AK, KK, AA or sets never fold here. What is the poin in betting the flop?
As to folding to a flop raise - 100% agree. The villain has a set or stupidly played Kx which is no wonder given his stats

Falcon1803 · May 23, 2014

Ubercroz said:
Even though you are feeding money in when you could be beaten by any Kx hand that decided not to bet (fish are passive)?

I think checking here is right. You can likely call that turn bet, and if you get fired at again (most fish are passive) then you can fold the river.

While you may face a turn and river bet, you are likely going to fold the losing hand often enough. If you DO take the initiative how does that help? if we bet and people fold we are likely losing anyway. If we get x/r then we are likely losing anyway. So a check here is probably optimal.

You mention control the pot size, but the absolute way to control pot size is to execute our advantage of position, by checking. the hands behind us won't likely improve, the hands ahead of us we won't likely beat. take it easy and use position for what its best for, making the right decision.

John, could you explain a bit further.
I think on this board QQ is a SDV hand and the bet doesn't accomplish much, given that it is a 3-bet pot and a hero could easily hold AK, KK or AA so no hand worse than Kx or set will call... AK, KK, AA or sets never fold here. What is the poin in betting the flop?
As to folding to a flop raise - 100% agree. The villain has a set or stupidly played Kx which is no wonder given his stats

$5 NLHE 6-max: QQ on K high flop

nykaktak

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akaRobbo

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thatgreekdude

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John A

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

suby_rafael

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akaRobbo

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SwiftHax

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

akaRobbo

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nykaktak

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hffjd2000

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John A

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Ubercroz

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John A

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el_magiciann

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nykaktak

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OzExorcist

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spiderman637

RIP Buck

nykaktak

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Falcon1803

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