$5 NLHE 6-max: Pocket 8s OOP against weak player

Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $4.37 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 2)
SB: $5.37 (VPIP: 35.82, PFR: 28.36, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 69)
Hero (BB): $5.16
UTG: $13.42 (VPIP: 28.95, PFR: 23.68, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
MP: $5.73 (VPIP: 5.56, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
CO: $31.21 (VPIP: 30.45, PFR: 17.95, 3Bet Preflop: 8.11, Hands: 324)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 8:heart: 8:spade:

fold, MP raises to $0.17, fold, BTN calls $0.17, fold, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.53, 3 players) 6:club: T:heart: 2:diamond:
Hero bets $0.38, fold, BTN calls $0.38

Turn: ($1.29, 2 players) 5:club:
Hero bets $0.82, BTN calls $0.82

River: ($2.93, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.40, fold

[spoil]BTN wins $2.81
[/spoil]
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Preflop is fine, standard set-mine spot. We could 3b I suppose, but I personally like flat call better.

On the flop, why are we donking? What do we accomplish? This board is super dry, and it connects with someone probably.... many hands Vs pick have 10's in them. So, we accomplish nothing good by donking. We just allow our opponents to fold worse, and call with better (with 10x). Cause there are really no draws for them to continue with, a handful of gutters... but we will be OOP for the duration of hand, and if called, we are in no man's land.


So, that being said, call pre. Check flop, see who bets, etc, make a decision then. I just C/F probably, unless I have a read or something. I'm a nit though.
 
Aces2w1n

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i was hoping to take down pot on flop... a hand like this is good to attack early while we got the lead i feel?
 
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seventhsense

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You don't look weak by checking the flop there because we almost always check to the raiser. If we had position then I would advocate a bet but when we get called we're in really bad shape.

I am probably check folding the flop. If someone bets we are either behind already or can easily be bet off our hand on later streets.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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i just cant see what hes repping

if he bets what does he accomplish?? esp when i check on river... it looks bluffy to me
 
Beanfacekilla

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i just cant see what hes repping

if he bets what does he accomplish?? esp when i check on river... it looks bluffy to me


You can't see what he's rep ping because you donked into 2 players post, and you're in no man's land, on an island, etc. He has 10x probably.

Don't lead into PFR and another V here OTF. Just check/fold (my choice), or Check/call.
 
Samuel Lee

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yeah but could villain float with overcards n bluff river?
He could but you don't have any information on him yet to know if he would.

Your preflop call is good but I wouldn't be that aggressive with 8s out of position against opponents that you don't have any information on.

I prefer check flop, see what the others are doing and if everybody checks you could consider a bet on turn, otherwise fold.
 
Beanfacekilla

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yeah but could villain float with overcards n bluff river?

No. If you thought that, why did you fold? Because you are in no-man's land.

Not trying to sound like a jerk at all. Just saying...

I think he has 10x. You are beat.
 
Aces2w1n

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so if he was weaker he wouldve folded or check check the river and we win some?
 
Beanfacekilla

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so if he was weaker he wouldve folded or check check the river and we win some?


Rephrase please? My min is taxed. Grinding all day now. Perhaps I just don't understand cause of that.
 
IPlay

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We have two hands on villain and he has not played a hand yet. How do we have the read that he is weak?
 
jashiggs

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i think beanface clarified this one. Nothing wrong PF, flop is where it starts to go wrong. Donk bet not accomplishing anything. we have called preflop to set mine and missed our set, this is a standard check. As others have said we have minimum info on the BTN villain so there's no logical reasoning for us to assume he is weak here. Again, turn bet is not needed and you've lost 1.40 unnecessarily. If we had more info on the Villian then this line could well be profitable but in this scenario i am check / folding the flop unless it is a min raise.
 
Aces2w1n

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what if we squeeze?

the more i look at the river bet the more i wished i had called... looks weak oh well
 
jashiggs

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what if we squeeze?

the more i look at the river bet the more i wished i had called... looks weak oh well

the river is irrelevant. the mistakes were made OTF and OTT which as others have pointed out left you in the dark on the river. If you think he has overs here and not hit why did you not shove? You have said in a few hand analysis posts that you 'felt' either the player or their hand was 'weak' yet we have no stats on the villains and nothing else whatsoever other than bet size on the river on this occasion. You at least made a good fold on the river i believe.

I know you are / were multitabling alot. How often are you playing for 50bb+ against unknowns OOP?

I am sure you are more than competent with pokertracker but this could be a huge leak here. I had something similar playing small PP from EP before noticing how unprofitable it was.
 
Figaroo2

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Mate I've pointed out to you before that a ten high flop gets the fewest folds to a cbet of all flops and here you are donk betting a ten high flop into two players!!
Would you do this with a value hand? Not usually because you'd be looking to check call or ck-raise and take at least their cbets. If you lead and they have nothing you win nothing extra.
I might do this occasionally with a set into two players especially if they are tighter with stronger ranges.
Here you are effectively stealing and yet MP trending towards tight.
Players will see this steal for exactly what it is. All over cards are usually calling at least once. If they call twice you are definitely beaten.
The button will have something here, you don't appear to be thinking about his ranges at all.
It is still good practice to check to the raiser. Just keep it simple at this level.
Leading out to steal is ok against one player but not two especially if the opener looks tight.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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actually not stealing... i did forget bout the ten stat u mentooned.

anyways generally i bet flop for value and hope overcards do call... and then turn we bet to hope to end the hand :)

i wasnt stealing we had a decent hand... if i was stealing and bluffing i wouldve went the 3bet route
 
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Perhaps if the question is asked differently... Why DON'T you think he has a 10?? What info are u drawing from/looking at to believe he DOES NOT have u beat with a 10? Or is conservative with 99, JJ, QQ...
 
Aces2w1n

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because theres draws on the turn... if he had overpairs or anything decent he would raise me on turn.

then he does a small looking bet like please fold... ppl at micro with a hand do the opposite than high stakers.. have a hand we bet big.. its rarely a bluff... but a small amount could be cuz they think they wont risk much and looks like ive given up
 
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seventhsense

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because theres draws on the turn... if he had overpairs or anything decent he would raise me on turn.

then he does a small looking bet like please fold... ppl at micro with a hand do the opposite than high stakers.. have a hand we bet big.. its rarely a bluff... but a small amount could be cuz they think they wont risk much and looks like ive given up

I take the same line as him with AA-JJ and AT.
 
Shumkoolie

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i just cant see what hes repping

if he bets what does he accomplish?? esp when i check on river... it looks bluffy to me

Just curious, what range of hands did you put villain on here? Because after the flop, based on the donk lead, and (s)he calls, I'm putting villain on JT+. You effectively turned your hand into a bluff almost immediately (funny you mentioned "bluffy").

Generally speaking, I don't hate the donk lead sometimes because there will be enough times where you'll take the pot down. I may even check (hoping villain checks back) and delay c-bet on the turn if it's another undercard (like it was here). If villain does call/raise OTT, then their range is more polarized to JT and better hands. But I would be doing this against a single opponent and not in a multiway pot like you did here.

In this exact spot, you lost way more than you had to.

Just a question, if you flop a set here against two opponents, are you still donk leading on the flop?
 
Romario2223

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I think that check\fold on the turn
 
Aces2w1n

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $2.05 (VPIP: 24.24, PFR: 10.10, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 101)
BTN: $2.31 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 9.68, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 33)
SB: $2.08 (VPIP: 18.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 71)
BB: $1.62 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
UTG: $2.35 (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (MP): $2.03

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has 8:club: 8:heart:

fold, Hero raises to $0.07, CO calls $0.07, fold, fold, BB calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.22, 3 players) 5:spade: 2:spade: 4:club:
BB checks, Hero bets $0.15, CO calls $0.15, fold

Turn: ($0.52, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero bets $0.37, fold

[spoil]Hero wins $0.50
[/spoil]
 
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