$5 NLHE 6-max: Middle pocket pair river action..

R

RamdeeBen

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This hand is very similar to a pocket five hand I had yesterday.

Villian:26/19 (86 hands)


What' s your thought on my river spot? I can't always give someone credit for a king on this board, so I call in position with a normal looking c-bet.

When a 10 comes I think in general thats a good card along with the 10 and think I'm still ahead in most cases and the board is now paired + a flush draw out there. I decide to re-raise him and either expect any king to shove me here so I can fold easier and maybe even a 10 happy raising if he doesn't think I have a king so when he "calls" what can really put him on here?

When he checks to me on the river, I'm quite confident I have the best hand in most cases as most 10's + would/should be betting here...OR..he "could" hold a 10 in this spot and think I hold a king. I certainly don't believe a king would play this way. So..what I want, is to either bet him out and get him to fold his 10..

What is an optimal sort of bet on the river to make? Do we bet 3/4 or pot size and hope to get a 10 to fold?

I don't think checking is good as we still can't rule out 7'7s-9'9s here.

How was the streets played and is raising the turn a good spot to even see where we are at?




pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($5.02)
SB ($2.04)
BB ($6.57)
UTG ($5.86)
MP ($2.17)
CO ($5.68)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6
club.gif
, 6
diamond.gif

2 folds, CO bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) K
heart.gif
, 5
spade.gif
, K
diamond.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.73) 10
spade.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.80, CO calls $0.50

River: ($2.33) A
heart.gif
(2 players)
CO checks, Hero ?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Why are you using the ten as a card to bluff (you can't be raising for value here, right?!!?!)? And you can't be serious about value-betting the river since every draw got there that you did beat (except backdoor spades).

Honestly, I just 3-bet preflop and never have to deal with this mess in the first place. Set mining against a CO steal range can't be super profitable.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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Wtf are you raising the turn for? Just fold.

Im on the 3bet pre train too
 
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RamdeeBen

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Wasn't set mining. Just felt in postion on a paired board with villian betting weak he wasn't repping the king very often. I think most people are re-raising me with a king on the turn so didn't put him on a king..the 10 was more of a raise because I didn't feel the 10 helps all that often and even if it does, he is going to have a hard time calling a river bet in most case espicaly when he checks the ace.



1:He doesn't hold a king.
2:He can't call a 3/4 pot bet on the river maybes
3:Unless he was slowplaying pocket 10's, "calling" the turn looked even weaker

I'm unsure of what you mean the mess? I'd rather him be in the pot still, get extra chips from rather than just 3bet pre and take it down if I can extract more from him.
 
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baudib1

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Just a really clear case where you should give up. It's obvious that A. you don't have a clear enough read on opponent to do this, and if you do, you didn't say so -- I like this play a lot if you have a different, specific read and B. you are not thinking about your own range, let alone his.

Because if you think about your own range, it is very clear that you will have better hands to float with and to bluff with.
I'd rather him be in the pot still, get extra chips from rather than just 3bet pre and take it down if I can extract more from him.

66 is just a horrible hand postflop, I'd be shocked if you can play this hand profitably OOP vs. a CO range and taking it down pre is a terrific result.
 
Deco

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Why would you 3bet preflop? 66 on the button is the most standard flat known to man. It's a horrible hand to 3bet. You have no good pairs to hit, your never going to want to stack off with a pair of sixes comfortably and the large stack to pot ratio does not suit your prospective set mining hopes.

I fold turn.
Fold > Call > Raise
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Uh... 3-bet 66 as a bluff against a wide CO raise from a guy who's probably raising a range of 20%+.

Villain doesn't have a tight range, so set mining isn't likely the best way to play 66 here imo.
 
Deco

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You haven't explained why you pick 66 for your bluff?

Set mining when your being asked less than a 30th of your stack and have position is always going to be profitable. I'd call this raise from the SB!
That and we're not really set mining 66 IP will warrent calls postflop from time to time unimproved. This flop is an example, it's technically a midpair.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Just because a line is profitable (set mining) does not make it the most profitable line.

The problem with set mining in this spot is that the implied odds you need becomes really hard to quantify. 12:1 is fine when a guy is raising UTG with QQ+, AK. But when a villain is raising a lot of hands, 66 is exactly the type of hand he wants a call from.

This allows villain to raise and cbet against us super profitably, since we can only continue on ~25% of flops. And on those non-set flops we continue on, we have little hope of improving, and we usually only have a bluff catcher that will be easy to play against. Not to mention that his range is more suited and connected than usual when he's stealing, so his ability to be drawing live against a set is better.

The only thing villain has to avoid is shipping us a stack when we catch a set, and bluffing too much when we're bluff catching. And since his range includes a bunch of weak hands, it shouldn't be hard for him to get away from us.

Idk, I thought it was common knowledge that we don't set mine against wide ranges. To me, the best way to exploit villain is to bluff. 66 is a great hand for that since it either catches up with the hands that flat 3-bets OOP, or it leaves us with an easy fold. And since villain is OOP and his range is wide, we should have a super profitable 3-bet here.
 
Deco

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Just because a line is profitable (set mining) does not make it the most profitable line.


It doesn't but it makes it more profitable than folding hence we do set mine. Do you agree it is profitable?
If you do this leave 3bet bluffing which we should be doing with hands we can't call with profitably.
If you don't ask someone to show you their HEM results. I don't have access to mine right now but I have a post on here or twoPlustwo filtered to something similar to this I could look for.

I 3bet hands with A or K blockers (A2o, K5s) or hands not quite strong enough to flat with but that have high cards that make both good blockers and good pairs for when we see a flop. The former I only do in position, the latter I do mostly OOP but a little IP as well.

66 has no blockers, does not make good pairs and is a prospective hands suited to high STP ratios. I don't 3bet 66 for the same reasons I don't 3bet 56s and because it is profitable to call with. It is one of the last hands I would ever consider 3betting.
 
bgomez89

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Uh... 3-bet 66 as a bluff against a wide CO raise from a guy who's probably raising a range of 20%+.

Villain doesn't have a tight range, so set mining isn't likely the best way to play 66 here imo.

This
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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It doesn't but it makes it more profitable than folding hence we do set mine. Do you agree it is profitable?
Yes, I agree its profitable. But that's not the point. Open shoving all in every time you're dealt aces is profitable. But no one ever does that because its not the MOST profitable way to play the hand.


If you do this leave 3bet bluffing which we should be doing with hands we can't call with profitably.
No! If 3-betting is more profitable than set mining, we should always be 3-betting. There's no reason to leave money on the table.

66 has no blockers, does not make good pairs and is a prospective hands suited to high STP ratios.
The effect of blockers is exceptionally small. Secondly, "good pairs" are exactly what you're up against in a 3-bet pot. Except that when you're bluffing with A2 or K2, your opponent is going to always have the better "good pair". Even if you have A2, and get called by QQ, and flop an ace, you're not getting any action. The point isn't to win the pot against QQ, its to win money against QQ. And we'll win the most money by making sets, straights or flushes.

Yes, you're right about the stack to pot ratio. But the primary reason we 3-bet these hands is as a bluff. We just want to choose hands that allow us to win the most money (not pots) against the tight ranges that people call 3-bets with. Sure we can play the hand profitably with a small SPR. But we can play it MORE profitably by 3-bet bluffing and then sometimes flopping a set as a backup plan.

To me, you're making a preflop planning error by calling with 66. You're planning to play for implied odds when you don't have the #1 thing required for implied odds: an opponent with a strong range.
 
Deco

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No! If 3-betting is more profitable than set mining, we should always be 3-betting. There's no reason to leave money on the table.

Let's say we 3bet 3x, we are putting in 45c to win 22c. If villain folds to 3bets over 66% of the time we can 3bet any two cards and show a profit. (assume SB vs BB).

By your logic you will 3bet 72o here because it will show more profit than folding right? In fact seeing as 66% is not that big of an ask with a very large number of opponents you will be 3betting 100% of the time.

We don't do that because people adjust, we pick hands that are better to 3bet. Even if villain never adjusts why waste hands we can flat profitably like 66/99/AJ when we can use hands we wouldn't normally play instead.

Besides even if we can make a profit 3betting 100% of hands here I still think flatting 66 with position will show us more profit. If you don't plan on 3betting 100% of your hands take something from your folding range which would normally net you nothing rather than abusing your calling range. You will still be 3betting him the same amount. You can't just think of things hands by hand.
 
Deco

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The effect of blockers is exceptionally small.

So let's say we're afraid of 4bets from most villain we're looking at {QQ+, AK}. Ignoring 4bet bluffs for now (with history of this my 3bet range would alter to include 99-JJ) your 66 is up against 34combos of 4bet hands. My A2o is up against 27combos.

My hand will run into monsters 20% less monsters than yours will. Seeing as were in position villains flatting range will be pretty tight sometimes non-existant so how our hand fares postflop is less important than if we were OOP (In which case I ditch A2o in favour of stronger hands such as KJo).

Even when up against a tight flatting range are blockers still come in handy as we counter AQ/AJ hands that will make up a huge portion of villains range.
Playing A2o postflop is easy. If we miss or hit our two we float or gtfo based on villains tendencies. If we hit our ace it's pretty easy to tell the difference between AQ or a JJ underpair based on bet sizing and we have position on villain and a very good idea of what sort of hands he has seeing as his range is all medium strong hands. Our range is polarized, we can put villain through hell. ;)

Playing 66 postflop is mostly going to be a hit a set or fold scenario, floating with two outs is less desirable than floating with 5 (If A2 hits it's weak pair). We never make a good pair. And we were getting 4bet more often in the first place from a hand we simply could have flatted and still seen a profit with (can't be said for A2o).
 
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baudib1

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I misread this and thought we were out of position.

Preflop this spot is pretty damned meh
 
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