$5 NLHE 6-max: Line check for two pair hand

jbbb

jbbb

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Haven't posted in a while so I thought i'd post this hand I just played. OTR I just checked behind to avoid any sticky c/ring possiblities from villian. Also new to table so no reads. Raised turn as I picked up more outs. Anyway C&C appreciated.


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($4.67)
BB ($10.34)
UTG ($5.55)
MP ($4.30)
Hero (Button) ($12.43)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6
heart.gif
, 7
heart.gif

1 fold, MP bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) 5
spade.gif
, 6
club.gif
, J
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(3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.92) 4
diamond.gif
(3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.58, 1 fold, MP calls $0.43

River: ($2.08) 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2.08 | Rake: $0.10
 
B

baudib1

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probably fold pre, bet the river for sure.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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Don't mind raising turn, b/f river like $1.1
 
jbbb

jbbb

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probably fold pre, bet the river for sure.
really? i love playing these small SC's OTB they're pretty deceptive and you always have the power of position if things go wrong.

Don't mind raising turn, b/f river like $1.1
I had no reads so wasn't sure how bad this player was. Do you reckon TPGK (JK,JQ) would call that bet with a 4 straight on the board? I was struggling to think of a hand that calls there that I beat on the river.

Cheers for the advice, consensus is thin value bet OTR by the looks of it.
 
R

RVladimiro

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I just don't like the turn raise. Pot is 0.92. Villain bets 0.15 you raise 0.58. So he has to call 0.43 on a 1.65 pot. That's ~4:1 on his money no fold equity if my math is right and he has half a brain.

I like the check behind on the river. What worst would call you with that board? AJ if you were lucky?
 
ben_rhyno

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I think pre is fine, we're fairly deep and in position. Line is fine def b/f river
 
acky100

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stop being nits, bet the river :D we have two pair and of course people are going to call their 1 pair jack hands in hopes that we dont have a straight. The fact this guy raised pre means im even less scared of possile straights but i wouldnt be all that scared anyway, he hasnt exactly played strongly. If he's being deceptive and wants to check raise us on the river then we can easily fold.
 
c9h13no3

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I hate this hand. It obviously has no plan.

1) Preflop, you flat, I assume so you can play for implied odd. Same goes with the flop. Doesn't really make a lot of sense, since villain raised from the CO, and we have no idea if he's tight or not.

2) Postflop, you raise, I assume because now you're thinking you have some fold equity... but you make your raise so small that no one will fold. If you're calling pre for implied odds you shouldn't have fold equity, but I suppose reversing your read based on his bet size is fine.

3) Bet the river. Please. If your opponent is going to play his hand face up, and you're going to butcher the hand, then at least get value.

So yeah, normally I'd want reads to play SC's. And I'd usually 3-bet this preflop.

I think pre is fine, we're fairly deep and in position. Line is fine def b/f river
Also, we're not deep. Villain has 86 BB's. Yet another reason to fold (or at least 3-bet) pre.
 
ben_rhyno

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Also, we're not deep. Villain has 86 BB's. Yet another reason to fold (or at least 3-bet) pre.
Actually thought this was 4NL for some reason. That said I prob prefer a 3b pre, but b/f river is essential
 
brank

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With no reads this is a fold for me.
 
B

baudib1

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We're going to end up heads-up postflop often with a terrible hand; villain raised from MP, not CO. If we're going to flat from the BTN here vs. unknown I'd rather play hands that can make a good top pair rather than hand's like this.

River is a clear bet for value.
 
Stu_Ungar

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really? i love playing these small SC's OTB they're pretty deceptive and you always have the power of position if things go wrong.


I had no reads so wasn't sure how bad this player was.

If you dont have a read saying this player will call flop and turn raises then you cant play this hand for implied odds can you.

So by the same reasoning, if you dont know if the villian folds a lot to a lot of turn bets, you dont know if you have any fold equity either.

So in this hand, you play a hand which requires your opponent to not fold to postflop raises, you then bluff the turn not knowing if he folds a lot and then fail to bet the river when you make 2 pair.

Basically you dont have enough info on villian to be able to play small sc profitably. How exactly do you intend to use position if you dont know how the guy reacts to raises? How do you intend to use position if you give people free showdowns with 2pair?

Preflop 3bet or fold, you have no reason to assume this player will be calling your raises when you hit, nor any reason to assume he will fold a lot either.
 
jbbb

jbbb

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Much appreciate the comments, heres my questions or thoughts:

I just don't like the turn raise. Pot is 0.92. Villain bets 0.15 you raise 0.58. So he has to call 0.43 on a 1.65 pot. That's ~4:1 on his money no fold equity if my math is right and he has half a brain.
100% agree. Too-smaller bet sizes are actually pretty common for me and something I need to work on. I was talking to a guy at the casino who said this too. In the future I gotta try make the size atleast pot (probably about 80-90c here)
I hate this hand. It obviously has no plan.

1) Preflop, you flat, I assume so you can play for implied odd. Same goes with the flop. Doesn't really make a lot of sense, since villain raised from the CO, and we have no idea if he's tight or not.
So tighter = higher IO's. I already kinda knew this tbh just never really thought too much about it. We should be less willing to call LAG's with speculative hands as we will get paid off by their weaker range a lot less?
2) Postflop, you raise, I assume because now you're thinking you have some fold equity... but you make your raise so small that no one will fold. If you're calling pre for implied odds you shouldn't have fold equity, but I suppose reversing your read based on his bet size is fine.
Don't really understand the bolded part tbh. Are you saying calling for implied odds means you think villian hs a strong range that won't fold (eg. over pairs, AJ,KJ etc) and so raising makes no sense as he'll want to get it in too because he probably has good equity in this pot most of the time? If not please explain further.
3) Bet the river. Please. If your opponent is going to play his hand face up, and you're going to butcher the hand, then at least get value.
lol in future river will be bet. Reading some stuff on 2+2 and in 'LTBR' aparently not betting the river is one of the biggest leaks in micro cash games.

So yeah, normally I'd want reads to play SC's. And I'd usually 3-bet this preflop.
Ok. After reading some stuff on 3-betting here and on 2+2 I understand it a little better but just so clarify: OTB you should be more inclined to 3-bet weaker or more speculative hands than your premiums? This means you have initiative and so when you miss (as you mostly will) a bet will usually win the pot anyway. With premium hands 3-betting OTB isn't so essential as we have a strong hand and best position so flatting can be ok?
Previously I was 3-betting strong and flatting weak or speculative should I change this?

Also, we're not deep. Villain has 86 BB's. Yet another reason to fold (or at least 3-bet) pre.

Actually thought this was 4NL for some reason. That said I prob prefer a 3b pre, but b/f river is essential
Quick explaination of 3b vs. CCing pre would be appreciated :)
We're going to end up heads-up postflop often with a terrible hand; villain raised from MP, not CO. If we're going to flat from the BTN here vs. unknown I'd rather play hands that can make a good top pair rather than hand's like this.
So you like folding>3-betting>flatting?
River is a clear bet for value.

If you dont have a read saying this player will call flop and turn raises then you cant play this hand for implied odds can you.

So by the same reasoning, if you dont know if the villian folds a lot to a lot of turn bets, you dont know if you have any fold equity either.

So in this hand, you play a hand which requires your opponent to not fold to postflop raises, you then bluff the turn not knowing if he folds a lot and then fail to bet the river when you make 2 pair.

Basically you dont have enough info on villian to be able to play small sc profitably. How exactly do you intend to use position if you dont know how the guy reacts to raises? How do you intend to use position if you give people free showdowns with 2pair?

Preflop 3bet or fold, you have no reason to assume this player will be calling your raises when you hit, nor any reason to assume he will fold a lot either.
Not really any questions. Your logic is impecable but not something I would have worked out unless you told me. Just in the future more must be known about villian before playing speculative hands I assume.
 
bgomez89

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how can we cc preflop???
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Yes OP, you're right about the implied odds vs. fold equity thing. If you *know* a player has aces, you probably can't bluff them much, but you do know they'll pay you off if you hit two pair or better.

So if you're expecting your opponent to have something good they'll want to pay you off with, switching your plan for the hand to get them to fold doesn't make a ton of sense.

On the button you are just able to get people to fold more when you 3-bet. This is for essentially two key reasons:

1) They'll be out of position if they call.
2) They don't see CO vs. BTN as big of a "battle spot" as BTN vs. the blinds.

So that's why people 3-bet more junky hands on the button, they get called less.
 
jbbb

jbbb

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cc = cold call
c/c = check and call
si
Yes OP, you're right about the implied odds vs. fold equity thing. If you *know* a player has aces, you probably can't bluff them much, but you do know they'll pay you off if you hit two pair or better.

So if you're expecting your opponent to have something good they'll want to pay you off with, switching your plan for the hand to get them to fold doesn't make a ton of sense.

On the button you are just able to get people to fold more when you 3-bet. This is for essentially two key reasons:

1) They'll be out of position if they call.
2) They don't see CO vs. BTN as big of a "battle spot" as BTN vs. the blinds.

So that's why people 3-bet more junky hands on the button, they get called less.
Yep sounds good to me. Thanks guys :)
 
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