$5 NLHE 6-max: Kings in a deep stacked 4bet pot very ugly board

Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 362.2 BB (VPIP: 22.32, PFR: 15.18, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, hands: 114)
Hero (SB): 462.8 BB
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
UTG: 118.8 BB (VPIP: 23.94, PFR: 17.84, 3Bet Preflop: 5.13, Hands: 220)
MP: 103.2 BB (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 19.59, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 299)
CO: 187.4 BB (VPIP: 29.33, PFR: 20.63, 3Bet Preflop: 8.31, Hands: 904)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Kc Ks
fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 9.6 BB, BTN calls 9.6 BB, Hero raises to 44.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 34.8 BB

Flop : (102.4 BB, 2 players) Ts As 4s

p.s - played the flop pretty bad. It's quite the crappy+get there board that made me drive nuts
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
you have 11 outs 9 spades + 2 kings. Thats 33 percent chance to win. If the pot is 1/3 of your remaining stack and villain covers shove, if not fold
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Check raise all in, if free card that is good?

Btw no idea how to play this =)
 
M

mikeisthebestever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Total posts
162
Chips
0
This is a way-ahead way-behind situation.


If you are ahead, you dont want to blow your hand off of something like QQ, especially if he has a spade.
If you are behind you dont want to put your money into the pot behind, trying to out draw him.


This is either a check-call or check-raise depending on if you think you have fold equity.
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2017
Total posts
1,501
Awards
15
Chips
0
Honestly, this is such a dumb hand. What range can we put BU on?
Call a 3-bet (not raise) and then call a 4 bet as well? just doesn't make sense.
My best guess would be AK or maybe QQ/JJ? To shove your stack right there on that board is probably not a good play, you will almost always get called by AK, and will not get a call from QQ/JJ.I'd probably go for a check-call and a cheap showdown here...
If possible, post villain's hand if it got to showdown? :)
 
Kurtimus

Kurtimus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Total posts
55
Chips
0
you have 11 outs 9 spades + 2 kings. Thats 33 percent chance to win. If the pot is 1/3 of your remaining stack and villain covers shove, if not fold
I like this way of looking at it. I think an Ace is likely here, I think some people get here with AQ or AJ type stuff. I don't think we are getting any more money out of QQ or JJ on this flop anyway, so we may as well maximize any fold equity against stuff that we're behind right now. Checking means we might have to make hard choices later, and I think it's usually better to give the hard choices to your opponent.
 
Verdue167

Verdue167

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Total posts
112
Chips
0
I'd put him on a medium pair range for setmine, JJ and QQ and AQ may be there. KK+ AK would reraise . Have you been playing very aggressively this session? V may be opening a bit wider. If it is credible you have the A and V has a decent fold to cb in 3b pots i would barrel and reevaulate on turn
 
K

KFlint

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Total posts
180
Chips
0
you have 11 outs 9 spades + 2 kings. Thats 33 percent chance to win. If the pot is 1/3 of your remaining stack and villain covers shove, if not fold

I'm guessing you made a mistake writing this. With at 33 % equity on this flop, you shove if you have roughly a pot sized bet left. You would be shoving 300bb in a 100bb pot based on your post, which is madness.


If you want to 4bet oop this deep, you better be balanced because only having kk or aa will cause you a lot of trouble. I check flop and and fold to two streets of betting unless I hit.
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
you shove if you have 100bb remaind stack
 
K

KFlint

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Total posts
180
Chips
0
I didn't really care about the real equity, the 2 kings outs are most likely good indeed. The poster said that if pot was 1/3 of your remaining effective stacks, you shove, that's what I was pointing out. You never shove a 3 spr flop.

It was just a mistake as he said 100bb left (spr 1) afterwards.
 
E

erlanditas

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Total posts
253
Chips
0
in his range is 99+, you block most of AK hands, and he could have as well AQ. If the player playing good with AQ is loose call on BTN, so he should fold his AQ, maybe some AQs he is still calling, so 4Hands AQs. And most left is some AK, and JJ QQ 99 maybe 1010. I think you can check the flop, call his bets. By that let him bluff with his air. I would not fold in this spot KK, when you block AK
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
I didn't really care about the real equity, the 2 kings outs are most likely good indeed. The poster said that if pot was 1/3 of your remaining effective stacks, you shove, that's what I was pointing out. You never shove a 3 spr flop.

It was just a mistake as he said 100bb left (spr 1) afterwards.

I do agree what you said and understood your message, that 33% twice was just too annoying :D I didn't quote you because I wanted to make an general comment only about it. However having that good equity should be the 'thing' separating it from standard case, at least it feels so for me.
 
K

KFlint

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Total posts
180
Chips
0
No problem mate, you're right to point it out!

I agree that having that much equity (i mean ... 33%, wow! :p ) makes it very interesting . With a worse spade, you'd have reverse implied odds this deep. A gto solver would be useful here, jj or qq with a spade is certainly in his range and perhaps villain would try barreling with theses hands to fold better.



I don't really like playing with more than 250bb personally.
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
So did you get answer alu?

It seems , CB/Call, x/Shove, x/Call are all correct given equity but surely there is 'standard' way of playing this?

x/Shove is bad because he will mostly only call with hands beating us, x/Call is bad because we give up our equity if he decides to bet turn large, CB/Call is bad because he will give up after CB most of his range and mostly call with better (Ax).
 
Last edited:
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
I think I prefer a check call on this flop and play it a bit like a way ahead way behind hand as our equity allows us to call wider.If we bet and get shoved on the math must be close to calling it off. I don't want to get blown off my equity by betting first.I'm never shoving here either this deep as I don't think AK folds and I don't think anything worse calls.
I'd rather glean the info from his flop action. If he has QQ JJ Id expect him to check behind especially if he has a spade. Without a spade He might bet once on the flop and then check turn. Either way I'm calling most flop bets and seeing what he does. If he double barrels its more like Ax or TT and I'm probably folding depending on sizing.
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Hero: KcKS, Cold CB shoves
Villain: {TT+, AK}, Calls sets and TPTK (52% of range)

EV= +11bb, so cold shoving is better than folding ;) But lesson learned if we can actually put villain to this tight range, solving this by math should be possible even for noob. Any objections for the vaillain's range {TT+, AK}? I do feel that the range is even more difined {QQ,AK} but better keep it at least a bit wider.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
Hero: KcKS, Cold CB shoves
Villain: {TT+, AK}, Calls sets and TPTK (52% of range)

EV= +11bb, so cold shoving is better than folding ;) But lesson learned if we can actually put villain to this tight range, solving this by math should be possible even for noob. Any objections for the vaillain's range {TT+, AK}? I do feel that the range is even more difined {QQ,AK} but better keep it at least a bit wider.

Well I did shove & he folded. lol
 
Top