$5 NLHE 6-max: From gut to bluff on the river

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braveslice

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Hi,

Pokestrars 6max zoom

I’m not sure if this is bad or just marginal play. Both Turn and River decisions can be criticized.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 161.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, hands: 1)
SB: 125 BB
BB: 88 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 9)
UTG: 34.8 BB
Hero (MP): 100 BB
CO: 97 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.4 BB, 3 players) T 8 K
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (9.4 BB, 3 players) 6
BB bets 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB, fold

River: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero bets 11 BB
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Preflop is good

on the flop, make a continuation bet of 6bb or 6.5bb. a continuation bet can be either as a bluff or for value. in this case it would be a bluff. we didnt hit the board and we are hoping we can convince the other players that we did and that they didnt. this is an easy way to pick up dead money. fold to most raises if they give you the wrong pot odds to continue.

As played, fold the turn. I'm assuming BB either has 97 and made a straight here, or he has Kx and made top pair, or he's bluffing. either way, we have nothing, and we have 4 outs to make a straight, plus 3 outs to make top pair. gives us 15% odds to improve and we have to pay 25% to the pot so we cant continue unless you have very good reason to think he's bluffing (we dont have a good reason to think that) (and if he is bluffing then he would have folded his share of the pot if we would have cbet)

I wouldnt count the queens as outs just because if he has a pair of kings, then a pair of queens doesnt help us.


i think the only reason that BB checked on the river is because he's afraid you might have a 9. which is a fishy move on his part. either way the bet is questionable. maybe, if he is a timid player he will fold. but if he's not timid, then he is only calling with hands that beat us. our line is very strange so he might call just to bluffcatch. I think bluffing here is probably just not a good idea. id check and hope that ace high is good.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Raise 4x, and hope this gets us HU.

Bet flop. 2/3 pot +/-.

Based on reads (if any), one and done, or 2nd barrel on any turn cards other than Q-7-9. Those are bad turn cards. However, 2nd barrel is really risky on this board, and probably should be avoided unless we have alot of history with V and a great read.

I don't like the line you took. It makes no sense. What exactly are you repping here? 9x? What if V has the hand you are repping? You shouldn't allow villains to see turn cards for free.
 
TimovieMan

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This is a good spot to c-bet 3-way, imo.
Fire the flop for about 6BB, and we're done after that unless we improve.

As played, fold the turn. He's not betting this turn into two opponents without Kx+, imo.

The line you took makes no sense, and it looks to me like he's planning to check/call, hoping to induce a bluff from you, and not having to pay too much when facing a 9.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Bet the flop and barrel a lot on blanks. This flop is dry enough, we have an over and another card that is an over to two of the cards, and a gutshot. We can put pressure on things like JJ, Tx, even crappy kings. Calling this turn is bad because he is probably never bluffing here and we are relying on pure equity and not getting the odds. River is meh, we can credibly rep some 9s but I'm not sure if this gets through often. Biggest mistake is turn call. Flop check is OK and river bluff is OK.
 
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braveslice

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Preflop is good

on the flop, make a continuation bet of 6bb or 6.5bb. a continuation bet can be either as a bluff or for value. in this case it would be a bluff. we didnt hit the board and we are hoping we can convince the other players that we did and that they didnt. this is an easy way to pick up dead money. fold to most raises if they give you the wrong pot odds to continue.
Raise 4x, and hope this gets us HU.

Bet flop. 2/3 pot +/-.

Based on reads (if any), one and done, or 2nd barrel on any turn cards other than Q-7-9. Those are bad turn cards. However, 2nd barrel is really risky on this board, and probably should be avoided unless we have alot of history with V and a great read.
The board seemed to hit their calling range, both TP and 2ndP, but also they should have many draws and I felt making sole continuation bet multiway would result too big pot, because lonely CB is hardly ever enough against even bad draws, so multiple streets would be needed.
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mbrenneman0: As played, fold the turn.
Yes I think folding turn is better, as you say, however I would give BB quite much wider range {any pair on the board and some draws}.
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mbrenneman0: id check and hope that ace high is good.
Beanfacekilla: I don't like the line you took. It makes no sense.
Beanfacekilla, I wasn’t trying to rep any particular hand, just better hand than BB had, which I assume was a weak one. When he did not bet on the river, I read him to have a hand or missed draw, but there are not many missed draws, so his range could be something like {TP, 2nd to 4th pair}.
 
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braveslice

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Ok, it seems that unanimously this goes to bad category. It does warm me though, that I got one OK-meh for river bluff =)

It surprises me that you all say CB is the way to go, I don’t see much value on it, even though I try my best.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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The board seemed to hit their calling range, both TP and 2ndP, but also they should have many draws and I felt making sole continuation bet multiway would result too big pot, because lonely CB is hardly ever enough against even bad draws, so multiple streets would be needed.
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mbrenneman0: As played, fold the turn.
Yes I think folding turn is better, as you say, however I would give BB quite much wider range {any pair on the board and some draws}.
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mbrenneman0: id check and hope that ace high is good.
Beanfacekilla: I don't like the line you took. It makes no sense.
Beanfacekilla, I wasn’t trying to rep any particular hand, just better hand than BB had, which I assume was a weak one. When he did not bet on the river, I read him to have a hand or missed draw, but there are not many missed draws, so his range could be something like {TP, 2nd to 4th pair}.

This is just FPS. It hits a PFR range. You played the hand all goofy. If you're going to bluff, it's gotta be believable. Saying "I wasn't trying to rep any particular hand" is proof that this is FPS. You would have a clearer idea of BB range here if you just bet flop like you're supposed to.

If you are gonna bluff, your hand should generally be played as if it's a made hand. What made hand do you have here? If you find yourself up against a smart V, he's gonna call you very light here.
 
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braveslice

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Well obviously I have for value at least {K9, T9, 89} should be many more, I honestly think in my level people don’t hand read so I find this argument to have certain hands a bit over ambitious. Why would you rep certain hand if nobody cares? Better to go with old wisdom of categorizing hand either strong or weak, or showdown/value/air hands.

It hitted PFR range, but it also hitted both callers range.

I think I had clear idea of BB range – any made one pair hand thus weak, if this is true or not is debatable but that is the range I played my hand against.

I do agree I played goofy though, but not quite imo way you say.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Well obviously I have for value at least {K9, T9, 89} should be many more, I honestly think in my level people don’t hand read so I find this argument to have certain hands a bit over ambitious. Why would you rep certain hand if nobody cares? Better to go with old wisdom of categorizing hand either strong or weak, or showdown/value/air hands.

It hitted PFR range, but it also hitted both callers range.

I think I had clear idea of BB range – any made one pair hand thus weak, if this is true or not is debatable but that is the range I played my hand against.

I do agree I played goofy though, but not quite imo way you say.

So you're telling me you raised preflop with a 10-9 or 8-9? K-9 mayyyyyybe.



Stop with FPS, just bet that flop. You may have won hand right there if you did.
 
TimovieMan

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So you're telling me you raised preflop with a 10-9 or 8-9? K-9 mayyyyyybe.
If he raised K9 preflop, then he failed to bet the flop with top pair. Also an indication that he doesn't have this.


Well obviously I have for value at least {K9, T9, 89} should be many more, I honestly think in my level people don’t hand read so I find this argument to have certain hands a bit over ambitious. Why would you rep certain hand if nobody cares? Better to go with old wisdom of categorizing hand either strong or weak, or showdown/value/air hands
People don't necessarily hand-read, but they do think about what you *might* have. And if you don't hand-read yourself, then there's little hope for you improving enough to move up anytime soon. Also, you're not telling me that there are no regs with solid stats in your games. Those guys generally DO hand-read.

It hitted PFR range, but it also hitted both callers range.
PFR + bet 3-way on that board = AK in their minds. You'll see plenty of folds.

I think I had clear idea of BB range – any made one pair hand thus weak, if this is true or not is debatable but that is the range I played my hand against.
He bet the turn into two people. Worst he's got is AT, but quite possibly Kx or better. Unless he's *very* weak, he's not folding a K on the river.
 
Beanfacekilla

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If he raised K9 preflop, then he failed to bet the flop with top pair. Also an indication that he doesn't have this.


People don't necessarily hand-read, but they do think about what you *might* have. And if you don't hand-read yourself, then there's little hope for you improving enough to move up anytime soon. Also, you're not telling me that there are no regs with solid stats in your games. Those guys generally DO hand-read.

PFR + bet 3-way on that board = AK in their minds. You'll see plenty of folds.

He bet the turn into two people. Worst he's got is AT, but quite possibly Kx or better. Unless he's *very* weak, he's not folding a K on the river.


Yeah I know LOL at K-9. I just meant mayyyyyybe he raised with K-9, not mayyyybe he has it.
 
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braveslice

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Uh guys this is 6max of course i open 89s and T9s (giving table is normal ie quite tight). Are we even playing the same game? And I would X TPBK more than bet it here OTF. Also it doesent matter how I play, it's about how and what they are expecting to me to play. What format u guys play?
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Uh guys this is 6max of course i open 89s and T9s. Are we even playing the same game? And I would X TPBK more than bet it here OTF. Also it doesent matter how I play, it's about how and what they are expecting to me to play. What format u guys play?


I will happily admit 6-max is not my game. But even so, even at 6-max, 8-9 and 9-10 are spec hands. And if you did raise them pre, you would bet the flop (I would).

The point I'm trying to make is bet the flop. After you check flop, I think you will have very little FE.
 
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braveslice

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haha, now we are talking. I think you missed my post 1:14 PM, where I recognised the fact that CB is right becase you all said that, but I don't understand why. Any hints how to think like that?
 
TimovieMan

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Well, T9s and 98s are in my range as well in that spot (especially on a tight table), but I c-bet those on that board too. Another hand that fits is 99, but I c-bet that too.

As played, though, are you really calling that turn bet with second/third pair no kicker + gutshot?

There is no way you have a 9 on this river.
 
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braveslice

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Well, T9s and 98s are in my range as well in that spot (especially on a tight table), but I c-bet those on that board too. Another hand that fits is 99, but I c-bet that too.

As played, though, are you really calling that turn bet with second/third pair no kicker + gutshot?

There is no way you have a 9 on this river.

Haha TimovieMan but look what shitty had I actually called ;) But yes, I agree that any decent handreader probably sees what you see, I'm not in position to argue with that, purely because I have no idea. You also said I should CB, do you have any more comments about that? I get the idea of K hitting my range a lot, but I don't see how I can actually fold any pair or any draw (even gut) with CB, so multiple barrels are needed. I don't even think second pair or serious draw will fold to 2 so most likely 3 barrel is needed?
 
mbrenneman0

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The reason why we cbet us because of dead money. If we cbet properly with 6.5bb (2/3 pot) then we are risking 6.5 bb for a chance to win 9.5bb. Meaning we only need to get both of them to fold 66% of the time for the cbet to be profitable. Most opponents are folding any hand that doesn't have a king, high pocket pair or made a set on this flop which is a very small percent of the range. We have a high fold equity here. You don't really need to understand the math, but do know that not cbetting enough is one of the most commonly cited beginner mistakes and most of the time cbetting is profitable. You also need to know when not to cbet and that's when the board hits a large part of the opponents range like if its mostly high cards or also if the opponent is a passive calling station would be a bad time to cbet as a bluff
 
Beanfacekilla

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The reason why we cbet us because of dead money. If we cbet properly with 6.5bb (2/3 pot) then we are risking 6.5 bb for a chance to win 9.5bb. Meaning we only need to get both of them to fold 66% of the time for the cbet to be profitable. Most opponents are folding any hand that doesn't have a king, high pocket pair or made a set on this flop which is a very small percent of the range. We have a high fold equity here. You don't really need to understand the math, but do know that not cbetting enough is one of the most commonly cited beginner mistakes and most of the time cbetting is profitable. You also need to know when not to cbet and that's when the board hits a large part of the opponents range like if its mostly high cards or also if the opponent is a passive calling station would be a bad time to cbet as a bluff

Well stated.
 
Aces2w1n

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the only hand your repping is 99... pretty hard to get folds.
 
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