$5 NLHE 6-max: Flatting 3bet with AK

B

braveslice

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I wonder if this was standard.

a) Did I miss value by not raising turn?
b) Are you ok calling 3bet with AK?

Villain 77 hands, TAG with AFq 83%, Cbet 0/4, Raise limpers KTs, 3bet 2/32 = 6.3%, RFI 24%, Fold to 4bet 1/1.

Has some 3bet bluffs mostly because does not want to call oop, but is very heavily weighted for value and BB usually tries to find an excuse to call not 3bet.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 121.6 BB (VPIP: 22.67, PFR: 22.67, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 76)
SB: 100.4 BB (VPIP: 17.95, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 157)
BB: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 16.84, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 98)
UTG: 70 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 4)
Hero (MP): 101.4 BB
CO: 351 BB (VPIP: 18.42, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 39)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 11.2 BB, Hero calls 8.2 BB

Flop: (22.8 BB, 2 players) 5 K 3
BB bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB

Turn: (38.8 BB, 2 players) K
BB bets 19.2 BB, Hero calls 19.2 BB

River: (77.2 BB, 2 players) 2
BB checks, Hero bets 63 BB and is all-in
 
John A

John A

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1) Yes
2) Yes

I'd argue to even raise the flop a lot of the time, since players don't tend to fold w/ any pairs on dry boards like this. I think it's funny that people are betting so small in 3-bet pots on the flop because some mid/high stakes players told them to do this. I'm not sure they really understand why they are doing it based on what I see on other forums.
 
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micromoi

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i would 4 bet with AK, QQ+, in microstakes you need to play less post flop people there likes to see flops a lot they will call u with lot of junk hands, but it is more difficult to extract money from theme post flop if they miss. the raise have to be on the flop u have top top with the A of diamond as a blocker u have to punish him if he is drawing. on the turn it's too late he already knows that u hold a K on your hand raise or call will not change any.
 
TenJack

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I agree with John on both counts, AKo really isn't what i would want to 4-bet versus what you believe is a value oriented range.

I think raising the turn would be a mistake, as it would be very hard for him to call a sizable raise with a non-K hand. Really the only Kx he has is AK, which we chop with. We are (basically) nutted as most 3-bet ranges aren't going to have sets or draws here. I am fine with flatting this.
 
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braveslice

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Thx for comments!

"I think raising the turn would be a mistake, as it would be very hard for him to call a sizable raise with a non-K hand." But would you agree that getting value on the turn is more likely than on the river? Also, wouldn't raising turn give at least some room for speculating if a) hero would really raise so obvious hand b) has bluffs because uses second K as a hammer c) might bluff some kind of FD because does not want to give up and spr is getting too small and might think that villain betting on that K is full of shit d) Might call with FD given spr e) River shoves are for value :D (always)
 
TenJack

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I think what you said certainly has merit, but it mostly depends in villain. Is v thinking on the first level? 2nd? 3rd? Also i think he never has a flush draw.

If he is just looking at his cards and what he has, i would be more prone to flat call, just as these kinds tend to telegraph hand strength with bet sizing.
If he can go 2nd/3rd level, then we might have more of a reason to raise. Raising the king does look pretty obvious, and he might be able to reverse-logic himself into a call with QQ, JJ.

I agree that it would be easier to get value on the turn from FD hands. Unfortunate, we have the Ad (and K on board) which blocks most/all of his flush combos. He would then have to be capable of 3-betting QJ/QT/JTs....

I think we should either jam turn or call turn/jam river. If we raise to 50ish BB we make it super obvious we have a king, but if we jam villain can still think we might be bluffing on a scare card.
 
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Ip we can call or raise pre vs a likely tag, villain should definitely have some light 3B’s here and also we beat some of the lighter parts of a value 3B range. AK also has great removal vs the stronger part of villains value 3B range.

I’d call AKs and 4B AKo.

Ap calling flops fine. It’s dry and we block the fd, a range call works best. The Ad also means we improve on turns more often. That equity really helps us fight for pots later on.

The turn puts us ahead of villains value range. It also brings a second draw. A mixed strat of raising and calling seems right, raising at a higher frequency. I expect us to blow villain out of the pot a lot of the time.

It’s always harder to get value from rivers for obvious reasons.
 
Ahoy

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1) Yes
2) Yes

I'd argue to even raise the flop a lot of the time, since players don't tend to fold w/ any pairs on dry boards like this. I think it's funny that people are betting so small in 3-bet pots on the flop because some mid/high stakes players told them to do this. I'm not sure they really understand why they are doing it based on what I see on other forums.

Hey John

I see this a lot too. Im using that sizing for a reason though. The first reason is that VAST majority of players on my levels (2-10NL) are playing extremely fit or fold postflop in a 3bet pot as the caller. I dont use this sizing if the flop misses my range completely or favors V calling ranges but the thing is if the board is dry and 1 high card I want to use this sizing with both my value and missed hands. So its really good, you can get called by worse if the guy connected and you have an overpair for example, or you can just give up on the turn when you get called. I never seen anybody adapt to this by calling every flop and then trying to stab the turn. I only change this 3bet pot C-bet sizing when the board is really wet and I need some protection or want to charge draws properly.

PIOsolver recommends this sizing as its hardly exploitable (even though I dont expect anybody on my stakes to exploit me haha)

GL:captain:
 
Hujiko

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1) No/Yes
Raising the turn could loose value as you are telegraphing strength that you have a strong hand. After your raise he will most likely fold most of his hands that you beat. By calling you give him an opportunity to bluff you on the river. So it is hard to say how to extract the most money in the long end. Will he call with more hands then he will put another bet in on the river and there is ofc always a chance that he improves to a better hand then yours on the river.


2) Yes.
AK is a perfect hand to play IP in a 3 bet pot and not 4 bet. OOP I would normally 4 bet this type of hand.
 
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Kalamari

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yeah my first instinct is to flat like you did but unless villain is too bluff happy which i dont think people are in this spot raise turn would be of more value -call pre seems standard
 
TheBigFinn

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1. I don't think Hero lost value, by not raising the turn. What hand calls the reraise? Better to call and let Villain bet the river. IMHO, it looks mire bluffy to shove the river.

2. I'm OK with calling the 3-bet in position, with the understanding Hero can't play fit or fold on the flop.

Nice hand
 
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