$5 NLHE 6-max: Check-shoving turn with top pair on wet board

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5NL 6-max zoom on pokerstars. Villain is unknown.

BTN: $26.85
SB: $7.51
Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $7.34
MP: $5.36
CO: $5.41

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with Q:heart: 9:heart:
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.50, BTN calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.02) 7:club: Q:diamond: J:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, BTN calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.32) 5:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.10, Hero raises to $3.85 all in

What do you think about the way hero played here? This was a very draw-heavy board, so I thought I'd try something a little tricky. I know that the more conventional thing to do is to just barrel, but I figured by checking the turn, the villain will probably take a stab at the pot with all his draws, so this will give me a good opportunity to check-raise all-in. My assumption was that the villain would bet this turn with 100% of his range, so I wasn't too worried about the turn going check check. I also thought that there's a chance the villain will fold a stronger hand like QT or KQ or even AQ, given how strong this check raise looks. Thoughts?
 
Beanfacekilla

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With V's stack size, I don't think he's folding the turn with any better hand like A-Q. Dude is just too deep. About the best thing we can hope for is villain calls it off on the turn with a FD or something, and we hold.

But what is your plan if turn goes check/check, and a diamond comes off?

This is just FPS.

I like the aggression preflop. We 3b V, nice. I think we should bet flop, bet turn, and check/call brick river cards (if villain even calls 2nd barrel on turn). We check call a brick river to get V to bluff with missed draws.

Bet flop a touch more, like 75-85 cents. Bet turn like 75-80% pot. If V calls turn, check brick rivers, and call. And we are hoping V doesn't have a better hand then.

Edit: we are giving V a chance to play perfectly against us by checking the turn. If he has draws, he could very well check it back, and you will be in no man's land OTR if he hits a straight or flush (because of being OOP).

Another edit: and furthermore, we miss value by checking turn if V is indeed drawing, and he checks back.
 
TimovieMan

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This folds out all hands that we already beat, and gets called by everything that beats us. I don't think this accomplishes anything, especially with villain being this deep - he's calling with top pair.

The way the board looks, your line looks very much like big draw with FPS.


I'd go for the "standard" bet turn and check/call blank river line. Especially without reads.
 
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But what is your plan if turn goes check/check, and a diamond comes off?

My argument is that this won't happen in the first place. I believe that the villain will bet all his draws OTT, under the impression that I'm giving up. I don't think that the villain checks back a draw OTT because from the villain's perspective, I could have Ace high or a low pocket pair and his draw probably can't win at showdown, so it makes perfect sense for him to bet the turn with a draw. It also makes sense for him to bet the turn with a weak pair under the impression that I could be on a draw, when his weak pair might just give up to a second barrel. So I'd say that the villain can actually make more mistakes when I take this line.

But in the unlikely event that the turn does go check-check, I'm going to have a bet/fold mentality OTR: bet 2/3rds pot and fold to a raise.

This folds out all hands that we already beat, and gets called by everything that beats us.

I'd argue that barreling the turn does exactly this. By checking the turn, he can bet with a weaker pair, bet with a float and bet with a draw. Do you really think that a weak pair is going to be happy to call down 3 streets? In addition to that, if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker.

The way the board looks, your line looks very much like big draw with FPS.

I strongly disagree with this. Big draws won't check-raise the turn. They'll check-raise the flop but not the turn. When a player check-raises the turn on a wet board, it looks exactly like top pair or better that wants to price out draws. It doesn't look like a draw. And if the villain has a hand like QT or KQ, knowing full well that I'm not check-raising the turn with anything worse than top pair, why should he be so confident in calling?

I'd go for the "standard" bet turn and check/call blank river line. Especially without reads.

I know he's deep-stacked so there's a good chance he's a reg. He hasn't done anything spewy just yet like open-limping the button. I am using my reads off how the average 5NL player thinks and most of them will take a stab at the pot when you Cbet the flop and check the turn on a wet board.
 
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👍🏻 I like it, but then I'm a maniac 🤘🏻😛🤘🏻
 
TimovieMan

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I strongly disagree with this. Big draws won't check-raise the turn. They'll check-raise the flop but not the turn. When a player check-raises the turn on a wet board, it looks exactly like top pair or better that wants to price out draws. It doesn't look like a draw. And if the villain has a hand like QT or KQ, knowing full well that I'm not check-raising the turn with anything worse than top pair, why should he be so confident in calling?
OK, then why are you doing it with this hand? To fold out exactly two combinations he might have?

I'd rather you did this as a complete bluff, or with a weak hand like third pair or something. Not with top pair decent kicker...
 
Beanfacekilla

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5NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars. Villain is unknown.

BTN: $26.85
SB: $7.51
Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $7.34
MP: $5.36
CO: $5.41

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with Q<font color='red'>♥</font> 9<font color='red'>♥</font>
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.50, BTN calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.02) 7<font color='black'>♣</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font> J<font color='red'>♦</font> (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, BTN calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.32) 5<font color='red'>♥</font> (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.10, Hero raises to $3.85 all in

What do you think about the way hero played here? This was a very draw-heavy board, so I thought I'd try something a little tricky. I know that the more conventional thing to do is to just barrel, but I figured by checking the turn, the villain will probably take a stab at the pot with all his draws, so this will give me a good opportunity to check-raise all-in. My assumption was that the villain would bet this turn with 100% of his range, so I wasn't too worried about the turn going check check. I also thought that there's a chance the villain will fold a stronger hand like QT or KQ or even AQ, given how strong this check raise looks. Thoughts?

Above, you say this is an unknown villain.

My argument is that this won't happen in the first place. I believe that the villain will bet all his draws OTT, under the impression that I'm giving up. I don't think that the villain checks back a draw OTT because from the villain's perspective, I could have Ace high or a low pocket pair and his draw probably can't win at showdown, so it makes perfect sense for him to bet the turn with a draw. It also makes sense for him to bet the turn with a weak pair under the impression that I could be on a draw, when his weak pair might just give up to a second barrel. So I'd say that the villain can actually make more mistakes when I take this line.

But in the unlikely event that the turn does go check-check, I'm going to have a bet/fold mentality OTR: bet 2/3rds pot and fold to a raise.



I'd argue that barreling the turn does exactly this. By checking the turn, he can bet with a weaker pair, bet with a float and bet with a draw. Do you really think that a weak pair is going to be happy to call down 3 streets? In addition to that, if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker.





I strongly disagree with this. Big draws won't check-raise the turn. They'll check-raise the flop but not the turn. When a player check-raises the turn on a wet board, it looks exactly like top pair or better that wants to price out draws. It doesn't look like a draw. And if the villain has a hand like QT or KQ, knowing full well that I'm not check-raising the turn with anything worse than top pair, why should he be so confident in calling?



I know he's deep-stacked so there's a good chance he's a reg. He hasn't done anything spewy just yet like open-limping the button. I am using my reads off how the average 5NL player thinks and most of them will take a stab at the pot when you Cbet the flop and check the turn on a wet board.

Bolded section above:

You are making wild assumptions about an opponent you know nothing about. I strongly suspect the results of this hand are clouding your ability to see how poorly you played it. You are acting as if you knew exactly what the opponent had. I think your thoughts are biased because you saw the outcome. You are after all OOP, and you have very little info to base a range on. However, it seems you have constructed a rather narrow range of hands for V, based on very little concrete info.



Next Bolded section, about c/r turn, and stuff:



Dude, in what alternate universe do you think someone would play a top pair hand like this? You think someone who 3b out of position would check raise the flop with a big draw? Who would 3b preflop, bet the flop, then check/raise the turn, on a wet a$$ board? People with top pair hands usually barrel, because they are trying to protect and get value from draws. People with TP+ arent going to take your line. Your line is just FPS, plain and simple.

I don't know any solid poker players who choose to C/R the turn, with TP+, on a wet board, to "price out draws". You just BET to price out draws.

Yes I do think there are plenty of shitty hands that will call 3 streets (at least flop and turn). That's exactly what dumb asses do at micro stakes. They call, all the time, with junk. With gutters, bottom pair (trying to suck out), FDs, even PPs trying to hit that 2-outer. The flop and turn are the streets that you can extract the most value from weaker hands.

And you go on to say "if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker".

So you just C/R all in? I don't understand the logic. And if your worried about being in a tough spot, maybe you should have thought of that before you 3b preflop, and put yourself in a spot where you are playing for stacks against a deep villain, out of position.

You created this spot. You wanted to play a big pot, out of position. But your line, and plan (or lack of a plan) just looks like you were improvising as you went along, flying by the seat of your pants. You should be thinking of the entire hand, ahead of time, when you decide to make that 3b preflop.

This is exactly why you are betting flop and turn for value. If you get raised, you can then re-assess the situation. However, once again, you chose to play this pot, and bloat it, while out of position. So you will have to deal with the consequences of doing things the hard way.

This is what you should be doing, bet flop, bet turn. You need to extract value. What you don't need to be doing is FPS, trying to take goofy lines and be tricky.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and your are playing against a V who is deep as the Atlantic Ocean.

And I think you are extremely results oriented. You post these hands for review, we are just trying to give you input. This hand is just goofy dude. It is from $5 NL. There is no need to be fancy, c/r turns on draw heavy boards against deep villains, with TP not so great kicker. All you need to do to beat these games is make top pair+ hands, and value bet relentlessly. It is simple.

I don't want to seem like a jerk or insensitive. I mean no disrespect. I am just telling you what I think. You are complicating things with goofy plays like this one.
 
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In all seriousness calling with Q9s in BB against button would be a better line IMO. On that flop, bet 3/4 and I'd probably bet 1/2-2/3 on the turn. My question is what are we trying to rep when we shove the 5h? And what are we trying to protect our hand from that the 5h would better in villains range? Top pair mid kicker you're better off playing this a little less aggressively. There's really not that many hands that would call an all in on the turn that you'd want to call but there's a whack that that would call that beat you. I don't mind your line but again being a little less aggressive with just top pair may be more prudent.
 
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John A

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My argument is that this won't happen in the first place. I believe that the villain will bet all his draws OTT, under the impression that I'm giving up. I don't think that the villain checks back a draw OTT because from the villain's perspective, I could have Ace high or a low pocket pair and his draw probably can't win at showdown, so it makes perfect sense for him to bet the turn with a draw. It also makes sense for him to bet the turn with a weak pair under the impression that I could be on a draw, when his weak pair might just give up to a second barrel. So I'd say that the villain can actually make more mistakes when I take this line.

But in the unlikely event that the turn does go check-check, I'm going to have a bet/fold mentality OTR: bet 2/3rds pot and fold to a raise.



I'd argue that barreling the turn does exactly this. By checking the turn, he can bet with a weaker pair, bet with a float and bet with a draw. Do you really think that a weak pair is going to be happy to call down 3 streets? In addition to that, if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker.



I strongly disagree with this. Big draws won't check-raise the turn. They'll check-raise the flop but not the turn. When a player check-raises the turn on a wet board, it looks exactly like top pair or better that wants to price out draws. It doesn't look like a draw. And if the villain has a hand like QT or KQ, knowing full well that I'm not check-raising the turn with anything worse than top pair, why should he be so confident in calling?



I know he's deep-stacked so there's a good chance he's a reg. He hasn't done anything spewy just yet like open-limping the button. I am using my reads off how the average 5NL player thinks and most of them will take a stab at the pot when you Cbet the flop and check the turn on a wet board.

I think your line looks fine. One of your assumptions should be correct, typically speaking though, but I think this has to do w/ level of competition. Most good players won't bet the turn w/ a draw once you check. Good players will know that you wouldn't be betting that flop often enough w/ bluffs or weak hands you plan on giving up on. So betting the turn w/ a draw just puts someone in a bad spot if you shove.

At 5nl against an unknown w/ TP, it's probably the highest EV line OP to go ahead and see if you get a cheap turn or jam it in if they bet.
 
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Above, you say this is an unknown villain.



Bolded section above:

You are making wild assumptions about an opponent you know nothing about. I strongly suspect the results of this hand are clouding your ability to see how poorly you played it. You are acting as if you knew exactly what the opponent had. I think your thoughts are biased because you saw the outcome. You are after all OOP, and you have very little info to base a range on. However, it seems you have constructed a rather narrow range of hands for V, based on very little concrete info.



Next Bolded section, about c/r turn, and stuff:



Dude, in what alternate universe do you think someone would play a top pair hand like this? You think someone who 3b out of position would check raise the flop with a big draw? Who would 3b preflop, bet the flop, then check/raise the turn, on a wet a$$ board? People with top pair hands usually barrel, because they are trying to protect and get value from draws. People with TP+ arent going to take your line. Your line is just FPS, plain and simple.

I don't know any solid poker players who choose to C/R the turn, with TP+, on a wet board, to "price out draws". You just BET to price out draws.

Yes I do think there are plenty of shitty hands that will call 3 streets (at least flop and turn). That's exactly what dumb asses do at micro stakes. They call, all the time, with junk. With gutters, bottom pair (trying to suck out), FDs, even PPs trying to hit that 2-outer. The flop and turn are the streets that you can extract the most value from weaker hands.

And you go on to say "if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker".

So you just C/R all in? I don't understand the logic. And if your worried about being in a tough spot, maybe you should have thought of that before you 3b preflop, and put yourself in a spot where you are playing for stacks against a deep villain, out of position.

You created this spot. You wanted to play a big pot, out of position. But your line, and plan (or lack of a plan) just looks like you were improvising as you went along, flying by the seat of your pants. You should be thinking of the entire hand, ahead of time, when you decide to make that 3b preflop.

This is exactly why you are betting flop and turn for value. If you get raised, you can then re-assess the situation. However, once again, you chose to play this pot, and bloat it, while out of position. So you will have to deal with the consequences of doing things the hard way.

This is what you should be doing, bet flop, bet turn. You need to extract value. What you don't need to be doing is FPS, trying to take goofy lines and be tricky.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and your are playing against a V who is deep as the Atlantic Ocean.

And I think you are extremely results oriented. You post these hands for review, we are just trying to give you input. This hand is just goofy dude. It is from $5 NL. There is no need to be fancy, c/r turns on draw heavy boards against deep villains, with TP not so great kicker. All you need to do to beat these games is make top pair+ hands, and value bet relentlessly. It is simple.

I don't want to seem like a jerk or insensitive. I mean no disrespect. I am just telling you what I think. You are complicating things with goofy plays like this one.

I know that this looks like FPS but I feel I can justify it for 5 reasons:
1) Stack sizes are at the point where I can check-shove the turn. It's not as if I have to worry about check-raising the turn then getting 3bet, or check-raising the turn and then having to play a river card being unsure where I'm at.
2) This is a blind vs BTN battle and I feel that check-raising top pair is more appropriate here, since people will naturally bet lighter, raise lighter and stack off lighter.
3) The villain may be deep-stacked, but I only came with 100bbs and thus our effective stack sizes are only 100bbs. When playing in a 3bet pot, 100bbs isn't a huge amount and stacks can go in pretty easily.
4) Although the villain may be unknown, the fact that he is deep-stacked (over 500bbs) and made a 2.5x raise on the BTN is already information that I can and should be using to make assumptions about him. He seems like a reg, just from the information I have.
5) There are general assumptions you can make about the average player at 5NL zoom on PokerStars. I've played a lot of hands and from my experiences, it's fairly uncommon for a player to call a flop Cbet on a wet board and then check back the turn. Perhaps I am being a bit results-oriented here, but I think that most villains will bet the turn when checked to. And I'd actually argue that you're being results-oriented for suggesting that the villain should be checking back the turn. The villain has no reason to think that I would check the turn with top pair on this scary board and thus he has a good reason to take a stab at this pot with any draw, especially if he thinks that there's a good chance I have a hand that beats him but will give up easily (eg. a low pocket pair or any weak pair really).

I also feel like a lot of players underestimate the level of the year 2016 5NL 6-max zoom PokerStars players. The regs here are actually pretty decent and can be very aggressive at times with things like restealing, light 3betting, even light 4betting. I feel like the competition has actually improved significantly since about 2013. I try to experiment with taking some unusual, exploitative lines every now and again against players that seem like regs, but I try not to overdo it (99% of my plays are pretty ABC).

Don't worry man, I don't take any offence to this. I do appreciate your advice and your willingness to help.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I know that this looks like FPS but I feel I can justify it for 5 reasons:
1) Stack sizes are at the point where I can check-shove the turn. It's not as if I have to worry about check-raising the turn then getting 3bet, or check-raising the turn and then having to play a river card being unsure where I'm at.
2) This is a blind vs BTN battle and I feel that check-raising top pair is more appropriate here, since people will naturally bet lighter, raise lighter and stack off lighter.
3) The villain may be deep-stacked, but I only came with 100bbs and thus our effective stack sizes are only 100bbs. When playing in a 3bet pot, 100bbs isn't a huge amount and stacks can go in pretty easily.
4) Although the villain may be unknown, the fact that he is deep-stacked (over 500bbs) and made a 2.5x raise on the BTN is already information that I can and should be using to make assumptions about him. He seems like a reg, just from the information I have.
5) There are general assumptions you can make about the average player at 5NL zoom on PokerStars. I've played a lot of hands and from my experiences, it's fairly uncommon for a player to call a flop Cbet on a wet board and then check back the turn. Perhaps I am being a bit results-oriented here, but I think that most villains will bet the turn when checked to. And I'd actually argue that you're being results-oriented for suggesting that the villain should be checking back the turn. The villain has no reason to think that I would check the turn with top pair on this scary board and thus he has a good reason to take a stab at this pot with any draw, especially if he thinks that there's a good chance I have a hand that beats him but will give up easily (eg. a low pocket pair or any weak pair really).

I also feel like a lot of players underestimate the level of the year 2016 5NL 6-max zoom PokerStars players. The regs here are actually pretty decent and can be very aggressive at times with things like restealing, light 3betting, even light 4betting. I feel like the competition has actually improved significantly since about 2013. I try to experiment with taking some unusual, exploitative lines every now and again against players that seem like regs, but I try not to overdo it (99% of my plays are pretty ABC).

Don't worry man, I don't take any offence to this. I do appreciate your advice and your willingness to help.


I have no problem admitting I am probably out of touch with micros. And I will concede you likely know much more about the common game dynamics.

That being said, I like your thought process, and I like the read you have. I also think it's good to go with your reads. I know what it's like to have a good read on someone. You just know...

I just prefer betting turn here, but that's just me. And I'm no expert, by any means.
 
John A

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Don't worry man, I don't take any offence to this. I do appreciate your advice and your willingness to help.

You need to work more on taking it personal and getting offended imho. Step it up man! :)
 
TimovieMan

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You need to work more on taking it personal and getting offended imho. Step it up man! :)
2-star-wars-quotes.gif
 
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If your read is right and he is regular, I don’t think he would bet draw on the turn, instead he would happily take another card (I also play 5NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars), also note that his bet is very small, actually his small bet OTT kind of underlines that he is NOT regular but most likely a fish and so the shove actually makes sense =) because he can call with draw and any pair. The big stacks usually are not regulars btw, playing with big stack is mentally demandind and most just take a break in one point ,at least this is my theory why so.
 
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6

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Results:
Villain called the ALL-IN for $2.75 more
Villain showed Ad 3d

I can definitely understand why you guys might be accusing me of being results-oriented, given that the villain happened to have a flush draw this particular time, which then begs the question:

In general, do you think that most villains at this level (5NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars) will be checking back their flush draws? Do you think I just got lucky that he happened to bet his FD here?

I want more opinions on this please. If the majority of you think that the majority of villains will be checking back these hands OTT, then I will need to change my strategy to just a simple bet/bet line, rather than bet/check-raise line.
 
alipalip

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I don`t think that Villain will call us with worst hand. The idea is this: i`m bluffing so V will drop better hand (In this case that won`t happen) or if i`m in lead i play passive so make him bluff with FD and SD or second pair.
 
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I don`t think that Villain will call us with worst hand. The idea is this: i`m bluffing so V will drop better hand (In this case that won`t happen) or if i`m in lead i play passive so make him bluff with FD and SD or second pair.

Look at the post above. Villain called me with a hand that was significantly worse than mine (he had just 27% equity). At the same time, I feel like there were hands significantly better than mine that could fold, like QT which has about 85% equity against me. So it was both a bluff and a value shove simultaneously.
 
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