Originally Posted by Matthew Southall
5NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars. Villain is unknown.
Hero (BB): $5.00
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with Q♥ 9♥
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.50, BTN calls $0.35
Flop: ($1.02) 7♣ Q♦ J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, BTN calls $0.65
Turn: ($2.32) 5♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.10, Hero raises to $3.85 all in
What do you think about the way hero played here? This was a very draw-heavy board, so I thought I'd try something a little tricky. I know that the more conventional thing to do is to just barrel, but I figured by checking the turn, the villain will probably take a stab at the pot with all his draws, so this will give me a good opportunity to check-raise all-in. My assumption was that the villain would bet this turn with 100% of his range, so I wasn't too worried about the turn going check check. I also thought that there's a chance the villain will fold a stronger hand like QT or KQ or even AQ, given how strong this check raise looks. Thoughts?
Above, you say this is an unknown villain.
Originally Posted by Matthew Southall
My argument is that this won't happen in the first place. I believe that the villain will bet all his draws OTT, under the impression that I'm giving up. I don't think that the villain checks back a draw OTT because from the villain's perspective, I could have Ace high or a low pocket pair and his draw probably can't win at showdown, so it makes perfect sense for him to bet the turn with a draw. It also makes sense for him to bet the turn with a weak pair under the impression that I could be on a draw, when his weak pair might just give up to a second barrel. So I'd say that the villain can actually make more mistakes when I take this line.
But in the unlikely event that the turn does go check-check, I'm going to have a bet/fold mentality OTR: bet 2/3rds pot and fold to a raise.
I'd argue that barreling the turn does exactly this. By checking the turn, he can bet with a weaker pair, bet with a float and bet with a draw. Do you really think that a weak pair is going to be happy to call down 3 streets? In addition to that, if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker.
I strongly disagree with this. Big draws won't check-raise the turn. They'll check-raise the flop but not the turn. When a player check-raises the turn on a wet board, it looks exactly like top pair or better that wants to price out draws. It doesn't look like a draw. And if the villain has a hand like QT or KQ, knowing full well that I'm not check-raising the turn with anything worse than top pair, why should he be so confident in calling?
I know he's deep-stacked so there's a good chance he's a reg. He hasn't done anything spewy just yet like open-limping the button. I am using my reads off how the average 5NL player thinks and most of them will take a stab at the pot when you Cbet the flop and check the turn on a wet board.
Bolded section above:
You are making wild assumptions about an opponent you know nothing about. I strongly suspect the results of this hand are clouding your ability to see how poorly you played it. You are acting as if you knew exactly what the opponent had. I think your thoughts are biased because you saw the outcome. You are after all OOP, and you have very little info to base a range on. However, it seems you have constructed a rather narrow range of hands for V, based on very little concrete info.
Next Bolded section, about c/r turn, and stuff:
Dude, in what alternate universe do you think someone would play a top pair hand like this? You think someone who 3b out of position would check raise the flop with a big draw? Who would 3b preflop, bet the flop, then check/raise the turn, on a wet a$$ board? People with top pair hands usually barrel, because they are trying to protect and get value from draws. People with TP+ arent going to take your line. Your line is just FPS, plain and simple.
I don't know any solid poker players who choose to C/R the turn, with TP+, on a wet board, to "price out draws". You just BET to price out draws.
Yes I do think there are plenty of shitty hands that will call 3 streets (at least flop and turn). That's exactly what dumb asses do at micro stakes. They call, all the time, with junk. With gutters, bottom pair (trying to suck out), FDs, even PPs trying to hit that 2-outer. The flop and turn are the streets that you can extract the most value from weaker hands.
And you go on to say "if the villain does have a hand like Qx, he might shove the turn if I barrel, which puts me in a really tough spot with top pair bad kicker".
So you just C/R all in? I don't understand the logic. And if your worried about being in a tough spot, maybe you should have thought of that before you 3b preflop, and put yourself in a spot where you are playing for stacks against a deep villain, out of position.
You created this spot. You wanted to play a big pot, out of position. But your line, and plan (or lack of a plan) just looks like you were improvising as you went along, flying by the seat of your pants. You should be thinking of the entire hand, ahead of time, when you decide to make that 3b preflop.
This is exactly why you are betting flop and turn for value.
If you get raised, you can then re-assess the situation. However, once again, you chose to play this pot, and bloat it, while out of position. So you will have to deal with the consequences of doing things the hard way.
This is what you should be doing, bet flop, bet turn. You need to extract value. What you don't need to be doing is FPS, trying to take goofy lines and be tricky.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and your are playing against a V who is deep as the Atlantic Ocean.
And I think you are extremely results oriented. You post these hands for review, we are just trying to give you input. This hand is just goofy dude. It is from $5 NL. There is no need to be fancy, c/r turns on draw heavy boards against deep villains, with TP not so great kicker. All you need to do to beat these games is make top pair+ hands, and value bet relentlessly. It is simple.
I don't want to seem like a jerk or insensitive. I mean no disrespect. I am just telling you what I think. You are complicating things with goofy plays like this one.