$5 NLHE 6-max: Calling a river shove when the flush gets there

6

6bet me

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5NL 6-max zoom on pokerstars. Villain is unknown.

BTN: $10.59
SB: $5.43
Hero (BB): $11.00
UTG: $5.13
MP: $7.33
CO: $5.00

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with Q:heart: A:club:
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, SB raises to $0.41, Hero calls $0.36, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.94) 4:spade: A:spade: 8:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.84) K:club: (2 players)
SB bets $0.45, Hero raises to $2.10, SB calls $1.65

River: ($6.04) 7:spade: (2 players)
SB bets $2.47 all in, Hero calls $2.47

What do you think about the way hero played this hand? I was hating life when the spade draw got there and the villain shoved the river, but I was getting a decent price on a call and I wasn't sure if I could fold TPTK. Thoughts?
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I remember, not that long ago when I really totally sucked at poker, I subscribed to the idea of blocking bets. Which are bets designed to buy the right odds to continue by betting out of position to encourage the opponent to call instead of raise large enough to price out your draw. I remember doing the math that a half pot blocking bet buys good odds for a flushdraw to continue if opponent calls...

I think villain here and a lot of other players at this level subscribe to the same theory of blocking bets and for that reason, at these stakes. A half pot bet, or a 1/3 pot from oop bet is a very good indicator of a drawing hand. So we should recognize that and price them out of the draw on the flop by raising to large enough to price them out of the draw here. Maybe raise to 2.20. Maybe even larger. Although this is definitely a high varience spot, and be careful of spr because if the pot is too large compared to their stack then they may wind up paying to see two cards in one bet (the turn and the river) instead of just the turn and therefore double their odds.
 
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S

Sneaky Feet

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Shove the turn on this one IMO. Short stack deserves no stack lol
 
TimovieMan

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This is a good spot where a "flush chaser" read is helpful.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Call all day in a 3-bet pot 100 deep.
 
A

aa4living

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And who won the pot?

If villian call my raise on the turn my tpgk is done and fold after the shove, if villian is not fish, that is why raise the turn right? To discourage bluffs in the river, and go check check
 
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6

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I remember, not that long ago when I really totally sucked at poker, I subscribed to the idea of blocking bets. Which are bets designed to buy the right odds to continue by betting out of position to encourage the opponent to call instead of raise large enough to price out your draw. I remember doing the math that a half pot blocking bet buys good odds for a flushdraw to continue if opponent calls...

I think villain here and a lot of other players at this level subscribe to the same theory of blocking bets and for that reason, at these stakes. A half pot bet, or a 1/3 pot from oop bet is a very good indicator of a drawing hand. So we should recognize that and price them out of the draw on the flop by raising to large enough to price them out of the draw here. Maybe raise to 2.20. Maybe even larger. Although this is definitely a high varience spot, and be careful of spr because if the pot is too large compared to their stack then they may wind up paying to see two cards in one bet (the turn and the river) instead of just the turn and therefore double their odds.

This was exactly my logic for raising the turn. There was $1.84 in the pot and the villain bet just $0.45 (less than 25% pot), so I immediately saw it as a blocker bet and raised the turn up to $2.10 for value against draws. When the villain shoved the river, I was hating it so much because on one hand, I had almost pot-committed myself after the turn raise (the price I was getting on the river meant I only needed to win the pot 23% of the time to justify a call), but on the other hand, I was just so sure that he had the flush.

It didn't surprise me at all when the villain showed Ks Qs (King high flush) and I immediately began to question whether I made the right call or whether I should've just trusted my instincts and folded. I guess one of my reasons for making the cry call was that the gutshots still missed (QJ, QT and JT), so there was still a slight possibility that he was on a busted draw. Although it was pretty optimistic to think that he could be chasing a gutshot for such a horrible price and would then attempt to bluff me off my hand with so little money left when I'd shown so much strength. I also thought that he could be one of those irrational fish that decides to bet big as soon as the flush gets there because he's scared of the flush and wants to disguise his fear by making a big bet (some fish think this way, especially in live poker), so that was another reason I leveled myself into a call.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I think it would have been more effective if you recognized it on the flop, but I don't know if its safe to assume half pot = blocker. I do feel like 2.10 on the turn was a little light and still gave him implied odds. Its a tough spot for sure, but I wonder if you should have shoved the turn, especially if you were going to call a river shove on the one suit you knew you didn't want to see
 
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I don't think it's at all possible to tell what hand the villain has based upon his 1/2 pot flop Cbet. Many players will make a 1/2 pot flop Cbet with a whole range of hands - sets, 2 pairs, top pair, middle pair, draws, complete air. There isn't really anything about that bet sizing that gives anything away.

The 3bet preflop gives away some information and the turn Cbet gives away a lot of information. Even the river donk shove gives away a bit of information. But I don't think that the flop Cbet gives anything away.

I don't think that shoving the turn is necessary. What about the times when the villain just has a weak pair like a King or a weak Ace? We'd be scaring him away by shoving the turn. I felt that by raising to $2.10, I was already putting myself into a +EV position, even if I did plan to call it off on a spade river card (not something I particularly wanted to do though).
 
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