$5 NLHE 6-max: BvB spot, get 3-bet and hit flop hard...

cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
$5 NL HE 6-max: BvB spot, get 3-bet and hit flop hard...

Having trouble getting villains stats right now, it wasn't a huge sample anyway. We had a BvB situation a few times previously, I raised once, limped twice then took it post-flop, and folded once or twice. So he's been fairly passive against me, and I haven't been overly aggressive. In a vacuum, should I c/r this flop, or is it better to c/c then c/r the turn? Can I donk the turn?

full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 468888
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $5.45
MP: $8.17
CO: $5.00
BTN: $2.77
Hero (SB): $5.10
BB: $4.93

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is SB with A :spade: K :diamond:
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, BB raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.20) J :club: K :club: K :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.75, Hero ???
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Why call the 3bet OOP preflop??

As played raise the flop.
 
M

matt20

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Total posts
79
Chips
0
well this is a pretty standard hand to 4bet pre... but a lot of ppl at 5nl are terribad postflop so flatting your hand is very disguised. On the flop your hand is an absolute monster. Your sole goal here is to get as much money in as possible since your hand is so under-reppd and theres so few hands that actually have you beat. Personally I would always lead this flop. C/R would usually just fold your most of his worse hands. Villains at 5nl would prob call you down with flush draws AJ and q10 on this board so I think bet bet bet is the best line imo.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
So notes for future-- 4-bet pre-flop to avoid playing OOP, and donk > c/r >> c/c on this flop. We want to get the money in fast here. Thanks guys.

I can post the spoiler now I guess. I decided to c/c and c/r turn, but he checked behind on turn. So I lead out river and he folded.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
So notes for future-- 4-bet pre-flop to avoid playing OOP, and donk > c/r >> c/c on this flop. We want to get the money in fast here. Thanks guys.

I can post the spoiler now I guess. I decided to c/c and c/r turn, but he checked behind on turn. So I lead out river and he folded.

I actually don't like leading without some history that he'll spaz raise when donked into. Like if I was the villain here, donking would be great because I must raise all donk bets, but against most villains they're just going to fold. I like ch/r much more that a donk bet.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
I actually don't like leading without some history that he'll spaz raise when donked into. Like if I was the villain here, donking would be great because I must raise all donk bets, but against most villains they're just going to fold. I like ch/r much more that a donk bet.

I'm the same way, lol, I hate being donked into. I guess it's just read dependent. I might prefer donking, too, since c/r-ing narrows our range a lot imo.
 
M

matt20

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Total posts
79
Chips
0
I think your going to fold out alot of his bad/draw type hands with a c/r. You really want to play for stacks with a hand this strong. I think the best chance to get the villain to hang himself is by leading the flop.
 
polakpoker4

polakpoker4

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Total posts
99
Chips
0
I agree with WV here that check/raising is better cause villain can't hit this flop very hard so you're probably only getting one street of value (unless he has Kx or Jx). Draws won't fold in bvb and might even 3bet shove which is perfect.

Basically, you're rarely stacking this flop unless villain has a big draw, Kx or JJ (mega cooler lol). Check/raise gets a the most value IMO
 
M

matt20

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Total posts
79
Chips
0
So basically right here we have a monster that we should be playing for stacks with on the flop and everyone agrees that a check raise is just folding out trash hands letting him get away for minimal value. Why not try to let him make a mistake for his entire stack? If he raises you original bet hes committing himself with a lot of draws and worse hands where as with a c/r we allow him to get away for cheap. I think the risk of him making a mistake for his entire stack outweighs the extra 75 cents you will win with the c/r especially at the micro level.
 
polakpoker4

polakpoker4

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Total posts
99
Chips
0
IMO I think there is a much larger amount of hands that miss this board than stack off. I can see your reasoning for donking but I don't think villain would reraise your donk with air but he will cbet it. Depending on villain, in bvb situation he might get a draw in no matter who leads this flop and he'll probably bet call Jx unless he's bad and instantly gives you credit for a king.

Both lines have their merits but in the long run I think check/raise probably earns more long run profit (though I don't have much evidence for this lol just assumptions)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
He's going to cbet that flop pretty much 100% of the time, so we always earn at least the cbet amount if we ch/r. If we donk he's going to fold some of his range, call 1 street with some, and raise with the rest. I'd venture to say that the range most villains will raise if we donk is mostly comprised of the same range that will not fold to our ch/raise. Yes, he's going to cbet fold a lot but he's going to fold to our donk or only call 1 street if we donk more often imo.
 
M

matt20

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Total posts
79
Chips
0
both lines are fine. Im not trying to say c/r is terrible. I just feel villains at that level get peeved more often when you dont give up on pots and are vulnerable in that type of situation to making a mistake for their entire stack.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
I like check raising. Our opponent is much more likely to get commited with hands he shouldn't be getting commited with when we check raise here. We could get a spewy 3bet bluff a crying call with a pocketpair and most importantly get the jacks pot commited.

Check calling allows him to control the pot. He gets to c-bet then give up with his marginal holding and not get pot commited with his jacks.

Oh and not 4betting AK when were OOP is sinful!
 
lupefan

lupefan

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Total posts
40
Chips
0
A question about bet sizing here, how much should we ch/raise him on flop...3x his bet? 4 since we are oop? And what about the 4bet preflop, 3 or 4x, or could we even shove with AK?
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Total posts
527
Chips
0
4 bet between 3-3.5 his bet seen as you'll be out of position for the rst of the hand. Id c/r 3x his bet on the flop though. But i think your call was far greater the best play. What can he have that will stay in on a two card flop? Your play was 100%. And the idea of c/r the turn is far superior choice.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
4 bet between 3-3.5 his bet seen as you'll be out of position for the rst of the hand. Id c/r 3x his bet on the flop though. But i think your call was far greater the best play. What can he have that will stay in on a two card flop? Your play was 100%. And the idea of c/r the turn is far superior choice.

What is this guy betting the turn with that he isn't calling a check raise with?
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Total posts
527
Chips
0
He won't call a cr. He's clearly on the bluff betting a flop like this. Atleast calling might get a second barrel bluff. Common sence really. If you happen to get out drawn by a 5 outer, well that's just poker. But I doubt here. Would you cbet the flop with a monster or let him catch up a little?
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
He won't call a cr. He's clearly on the bluff betting a flop like this. Atleast calling might get a second barrel bluff. Common sence really. If you happen to get out drawn by a 5 outer, well that's just poker. But I doubt here. Would you cbet the flop with a monster or let him catch up a little?

You don't think there's the slightest chance he could hold a jack, king, straight draw or flush draw? We want to stack these hands and win big juicy 100bb pots. If we slowplay our monsters hoping to catch bluffs, sure on the odd occasion this guy may double barrel and we'll win a couple of 10-30bb pots. Myself I prefer the 100bb pots you can win when you build a big pot with big hands against players who call too much.
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Total posts
527
Chips
0
if he has what you say, you'll get it in on the turn any way. so whats your arguement? atleast this way you give yourseif another chance to collect another bet. Plus if you held a J would you c bet?
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
We want to get the money in sooner than later, cuz some cards are going to kill our action on the turn. If a flush makes on the turn, and Villain's holding a J, a pp, or a straight draw, he's less likely to put more money in the pot.

The other thing to consider is that alot of guys will convince themselves that you must be bluffing, since w a paired board it's unlikely you're holding one of the other two K's - so you may be pushing TT's or something, which means my J is good!!!

That's not to say it's never correct to slow play, but on a wet board like this I think it's a mistake to slow play - I'd rather slowplay KK5r than this board (tho I admit slowplaying isn't really a big part of my game... :eek: ).
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
Geez, I forgot this is bvb - heck, nobody believes any bet bvb, I'm definitely not slowplaying here...
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
c/r the flop, if he's a thinking player it looks like a draw. If he's not (and he's not) he'll come along anyway with AJ type hands and any K.

My issue with a flop c/r isn't folding out hands but risking him checking behind with a draw. Still I think it's going to be a lot easier to play for stacks against anything that hit that board in any way if you c/r than donk bet.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
if he has what you say, you'll get it in on the turn any way. so whats your arguement? atleast this way you give yourseif another chance to collect another bet.

What sly said and add to this that if we checkraise the turn we are giving the jacks a chance to fold.
Checkraising the turn is soo much stronger than check raising the flop. Checkraising the flop looks alot more natural and bluffy. Slowplaying lines give hands we'd normally stack a chance to fold as they look so scary.
 
P

Pafkata

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 8, 2009
Total posts
192
Chips
0
You have a big hand ,so you have to build a big pot !

How do you do that ? -> BET !!!

You will get a call most of the time because it's BvB and most people don't believe and will simply call because of the position.

Then you can check-raise the turn, because villain may decide to bluff the turn after you have checked and showed weakness.

You don't really want to see a 3rd club,so it will be great if villain folds to the turn c/r.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
Then you can check-raise the turn, because villain may decide to bluff the turn after you have checked and showed weakness.

Almost never c/r the turn. It just lets your opponent check behind for pot control which is going to happen a lot. Even at micros they may not know that's what they're doing but if they have a hand that they're not sure is best, they'll still check it back a lot.

Because of the stakes we can assume villain isn't aware of the Baluga Theorem (google it if you're not), but turn check raises are still a massive display of strength, a lot different to a flop c/r because on the flop it can easily be a bluff (given excessive c-betting) but to c/r the turn you have to be running a multi-street bluff which is lot riskier (and more uncommon). A turn c/r gives your opponent a really good excuse to fold.
 
Top