$5 NLHE 6-max: Bluffing against 3 on an uncoordinated flop

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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$5NLHE 6-max at Bovada

Table was very nitty/passive. they were quick to stack off when they had it, but got out of the way when they didnt or didnt have odds to complete any draws they had.

UTG ($8.55)
Hero/MP ($4.95)
CO ($5.00)
BTN ($8.48)
SB ($8.99)
BB (4.79)


Preflop:
Hero has:
:kd4: :5h4:

SB posts small blind: $0.02
BB posts big blind: $0.05
fold
Hero raises to: $0.15
fold
BTN calls
SB calls
BB calls

Flop: ($0.60)
:4s4: :9c4: :8c4:

SB checks
BB checks
Hero bets: $0.30
 
TimovieMan

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Fold preflop. Seriously.
This isn't even in my BTN opening range, so the blinds would have to be exceptional nits for me to play this. And I open 50% from the BTN.
From the Hijack? Fold 1000% imo.

That's a pretty bad flop to get vs 3 coldcallers. Your fold equity is going to approach zero. Just give up postflop. This is the wrong spot to try this in.
 
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Simplex

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2 5 7 offsuit would be an uncoordinated flop. This board is somewhat coordinated. It hits suited combo hands occasionally. Firing into 3 other players with air I'm not a fan off, but occasionally it's worth a try. I think this is the wrong board to do it in a multi-way pot. Additionally, this hand (K5 off) screams reverse implied odds to me. What happens when you hit a K, 5 kicker and get called down the whole way? Likely a better K is calling off assuming they missed everything else.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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i think with the table dynamics as stale as it was, it was okay. I started stealing the blinds often, and honestly this was an attempt to steal preflop, knowing they are folding most hands to a preflop raise. I almost wanted to be caught in a bluff to induce more action.

I was faily certain that they were only entering the pot with face cards. if any played back I fold. all folded.
 
c9h13no3

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Flop is the opposite of uncoordinated. Anyone with two connecting cards between 5 and Q has either a pair or a straight draw. You suck at reading boards.

And fold pre. And leave the table if it's that nitty.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

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Flop is the opposite of uncoordinated. Anyone with two connecting cards between 5 and Q has either a pair or a straight draw. You suck at reading boards.

And fold pre. And leave the table if it's that nitty.

Hahaha this made me laugh out loud.

And yes. I completely agree with this.
 
quick

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This is an insta fold preflop. I get if you felt they were nitty to bet pre but why in MP? What was the goal of your raise? With K5o with people still to act was your goal to steal blinds ? You don't want people going into most flops with you with such a crappy hand pre.

As people play this game more and more you have to consider the reason for your raising. "The table seemed nitty" isn't a good reason, esp not with K5o and you had 3 callers.

Then the flop is so coordinated it's scary. Any two suited is drawing way ahead of you. So many other connectors are viable, a possible low set mine, not to mention any paired up hand has you behind. And what if the turn drops a K (or worse a K club) then what's your next move?

Think why you raised and what the game plan was going to be on the flop and if your hand improved. If for some reason I found myself raising and getting in a hand with K5o and I don't hit K5 on the flop and three others are in it, I'm out. Also you really don't want to be C-bet bluffing on a flop where you didn't get a piece AND more than half the table is still in the hand.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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This is an insta fold preflop. I get if you felt they were nitty to bet pre but why in MP? What was the goal of your raise? With K5o with people still to act was your goal to steal blinds ? You don't want people going into most flops with you with such a crappy hand pre.

As people play this game more and more you have to consider the reason for your raising. "The table seemed nitty" isn't a good reason, esp not with K5o and you had 3 callers.

Then the flop is so coordinated it's scary. Any two suited is drawing way ahead of you. So many other connectors are viable, a possible low set mine, not to mention any paired up hand has you behind. And what if the turn drops a K (or worse a K club) then what's your next move?

Think why you raised and what the game plan was going to be on the flop and if your hand improved. If for some reason I found myself raising and getting in a hand with K5o and I don't hit K5 on the flop and three others are in it, I'm out. Also you really don't want to be C-bet bluffing on a flop where you didn't get a piece AND more than half the table is still in the hand.


The reason for raising pre was a bluff.
they kept letting me steal the blinds, so I kept doing it. it wasnt a c-bet for the sake of continuing aggression. it was again a bluff. i was banking on the probability that they didnt get a piece of the flop either. and maybe they had a straight draw, they would have had the wrong odds to call and see the turn if i actually had something. Im out when they play back. according to 'easy game', aggression = fold equity + pot equity. pot equity was virtually zero, but fold equity was high.
 
TimovieMan

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The reason for raising pre was a bluff.
Which translates to a steal.
It's not stealing when you do it from MP - too many players left to act.

If you want to play a bit looser because the table is nitty, then you look to play hands that are outside your opening range for the position you're in, but not by so much that they can't really stand a call. K5o is a trash hand that'll hardly ever flop well. At most you should add that to your BTN range if the blinds are really nitty. In all other cases you should toss it.
Suppose your "standard" opening range from the Hijack is something like 22+/A8s+/KTs+/QTs+/T9s+/ATo+/KTo+/QTo+/JTo (a 19% range), then you're looking to add stuff like A7s-A2s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, 98s-76s, A9o-A8o, T9o (which is a 24+% range). The difference isn't so big that they'll pick up on it, or that it'll hurt your overall equity if you do get called.

Also, the reason you're stealing blinds only from late position is that you'll have position on your opponent postflop in the event that you get called. If CO and BTN call, then you're in trouble postflop with K5o.

they kept letting me steal the blinds, so I kept doing it. it wasnt a c-bet for the sake of continuing aggression. it was again a bluff. i was banking on the probability that they didnt get a piece of the flop either. and maybe they had a straight draw, they would have had the wrong odds to call and see the turn if i actually had something. Im out when they play back.
It's rarely going to be wrong to call a half-pot bet on the flop with a good draw. If they hit immediately, there'll be two streets of implied odds, and if they don't hit, then there's always the chance that you were just c-betting and that they'll get a free river card, which doubles their flop equity.

No OESD or flush draw is EVER folding to a half-pot bet on the flop.

according to 'easy game', aggression = fold equity + pot equity. pot equity was virtually zero, but fold equity was high.
The more people there are in the pot, the lower your fold equity is. That means that the more people are in the pot, the more you should focus on value-betting instead of bluffing.

With just one overcard, no draw whatsoever (not even a backdoor draw), two cards between 8 and J on the board, a two-tone flop that you miss completely, and 3 opponents, the only possibility for you is check/fold. That board is so wet, and it hits a coldcalling range so hard, that you'll be ahead here almost never, and that anyone that did get a piece of that board isn't going to fold to a smallish flop bet.

You got extremely lucky that they all missed the flop.
I'm thinking this'll work less than 10% of the time.

I do not believe that this is ever going to be a winning move. Just because you won it this time, doesn't make it +EV decision, imo.
 
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braveslice

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I do agree with comments above, however I feel stealing with that hand against nits is not that much minus EV (we all do that when we get the god complex), but the next step CB in multiway pot in already quite large pot is a costly mistake, and would be even in dryish board. Your plan was to get folds, instead u got many callers, logical step in the plan is?
 
DrazaFFT

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Have so little to add to this, when you're at MP, blind stealing is not something you should think about with 4 people to act after you. This is a terrible board to cbet for so many reasons, thinking player would know that this board fall right into his cold call range and most of the time misses your MP opening range so he can float often cuz you will give up when called often enough that they can auto profit, and with 4 clean outs at best youre not highly likely to improve and also there is no turn cards beside K that can improve your equity to justify a second barrel, Easy game also say what are good starting combos to open and what are the combos that play well postflop, Kxs is not one od them specially at mp, if you really wanna steal this early you better do it with 67s, 75s, 65s and something like that... Board is a book example of wet draw heavy, definitely one of the worse possible to cbet at as bluff, even more against 2 opponents. We are betting as bluff but what better will fold here? Draws will have good odda to call, overpairs and TP or 2nd P wont fold, youre only folding Ax combos which are smaller portion of his cc range, thus the cbet as bluff wont be profitable, cbet to collect dead money is also wrong idea here cuz we have close to 0 FE, we dont even need to mention bet for value... All this being said, check back flop but even more important, fold pre.

And one more thing which i think that is pretty important, i keep seeing, looking at your hands that you make your decisions based on your reads on your opponents not based on the logic, i would suggest to concentrate on solid abc and solid str8 forward poker then when you master the optimal game only then you should deviate your ranges and plays to exploit others for now keep it simple and do abc like every hand is played as first at the table, then when you get comfortable with playing that way, you can manipulate ranges and mix it up to explot more... Imho of course
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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great post draza. i definitely want to be more of a lag player, but its really easy to forget where the line is between hands that flop well like connectors or suited one off connectors and just any two cards...

i think im going to need to read easy game a few more times before i really start to get it down, i might contact amazon to see if they can hook me up with the kindle version of the book so i can read some at work :p
 
TimovieMan

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great post draza. i definitely want to be more of a lag player, but its really easy to forget where the line is between hands that flop well like connectors or suited one off connectors and just any two cards...
If you want to become a good LAG, you need to perfect your TAG first, and then increase the hands you play.
LAGs get in plenty of marginal situations. You might want to avoid those until you get a better grip on how to play them.
 
DrazaFFT

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If you want to become a good LAG, you need to perfect your TAG first, and then increase the hands you play.
LAGs get in plenty of marginal situations. You might want to avoid those until you get a better grip on how to play them.

Definitely agree!! Tho it might work the other way, its definitely faster and cheaper this way
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I guess I'm coming at it with the attitude of seeing what works and what doesn't. And when something doesn't work, come here to find out why. So far I'm profiting on bovada, but its entirely possible that I'm just on a heater, could also be the extremely soft competition. I guess if I see a good enough reversal in the trend than ill come here to find out. So far my worst downswing was 4BI but that was definitely from playing while too tired.
 
John A

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If you want to become a good LAG, you need to perfect your TAG first, and then increase the hands you play.
LAGs get in plenty of marginal situations. You might want to avoid those until you get a better grip on how to play them.

Everyone wants to run before they walk.

But yeah, you can't become a good LAG player until you understand how to be a good NIT, and TAG player. You'll just be another bad LAG, which I don't personally mind... that's how I make all my money. :)
 
IPlay

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Flop is the opposite of uncoordinated. Anyone with two connecting cards between 5 and Q has either a pair or a straight draw. You suck at reading boards.

And fold pre. And leave the table if it's that nitty.

Lmao, this a little harsh but true. I also don't believe there is a 6max 5NL table on Bovada that is nitty and passive and if you found one then just switch tables. You are probably the mark here judging by this post.
 
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