$5 NLHE 6-max: baby FD on turn with gutshot versus 2 all-in's

vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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Both unkowns. got no hands on them. what do i do here?

pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($5.98)
Hero (SB) ($6.24)
BB ($4.30)
UTG ($8.16)
MP ($3.72)
CO ($2.98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7
spade.gif
, 5
spade.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45) 6
heart.gif
, J
diamond.gif
, A
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.45) 3
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $0.24, BB raises to $0.48, CO raises to $1.30, Hero calls $1.06, BB raises to $4.15 (All-In), CO calls $1.53 (All-In), HERO ?????
 
RodneyC86

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Fold pre, what were you thinking? Calling OOP versus a 60bb stack with a decidedly speculative hand?

As played preflop, check/fold flop.

Definitely check/fold turn too.... As played fold the damn shove, You don't have the odds to to call with about 3 bucks here for 7 dollar pot I think, you are way way behind even with your 12 outs.

For goodness sakes stop train wrecking yourself, this hand is played so bad it hurts my head
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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yea, i hear ya rodney. lemme get some more opinions(hopefully) and then ill let you know what they had. TBH this was maybe one of the toughest spots of the session.

p.s: i like flatting speculative hands even OOP. I try not to get overinvolved unless i crush the flop though. All in all, your right , this is a messy spot with a messy hand.
 
LD1977

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Your outs aren't even that certain, someone can easily have a better FD here (lets say KQ for nut FD + gutshot). Doesn't mean they should stack off with this but you have no reads :D
 
H

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Cutoff has AA,JJ or AJ?

This is an insta-fold for me.

I agree with Rodney that the cutoff's most likely hands are AA, JJ, or AJ, and I don't think the BB would be calling the all-in with less than a pair and a better flush draw than yours. I think you've got three outs --- the three non-spade fours.

-HooDooKoo
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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OK ,i got lucky this time. But i aint making these types of calls no more. i just had so many outs to the nuts( assuming noone was on a flush draw and the board didnt pair and my grandmother wasnt an astronaught)


PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($5.98)
Hero (SB) ($6.24)
BB ($4.30)
UTG ($8.16)
MP ($3.72)
CO ($2.98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7
spade.gif
, 5
spade.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45) 6
heart.gif
, J
diamond.gif
, A
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.45) 3
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $0.24, BB raises to $0.48, CO raises to $1.30, Hero calls $1.06, BB raises to $4.15 (All-In), CO calls $1.53 (All-In), Hero calls $2.85

River: ($11.58) 4
spade.gif
(3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $11.58 | Rake: $0.48

Results below:
Hero had 7
spade.gif
, 5
spade.gif
(flush, Ace high).
BB had 6
diamond.gif
, 6
spade.gif
(three of a kind, sixes).
CO had A
club.gif
, A
diamond.gif
(three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $11.10
 
RodneyC86

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Turns out I read it right again lol

Yeah you lucky punk you hit one of your 10 outs since jack or six spades still kills you.
 
jaworek1405

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Here I don't think that someone can have a better flush draw, because they both check on the flop. They slow play something, so it seems that they hit something and try to protect their hands. They go all in with FD on the turn? I don't think so. I'm not sure if call pre flop is good option, but as you played ... it is a little crazy hand, two players go allin, and hero... I take it, about 10outs is enough for me. (but it is still crazy and very risky option):)
 
C

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HELL YEAH. We all need a little luck sometimes my dude.
 
John A

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Fold pre-flop... and fold on the flop. Likes like slow play city... all the signs are there.
 
B

baudib1

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Pre is fairly terrible, folding or 3-betting are both infinitely better with hands like this OOP vs. CO.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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Pre is fairly terrible, folding or 3-betting are both infinitely better with hands like this OOP vs. CO.


why is 3 betting better than flatting here? the way i understand it, it's because we can take it down right there. But the thing is i don't want to take it down right there. I want to see a cheap flop.

Like ,if i 3bet and he 4bets, im burning money(which 99% of the time he won't,just saying here). Again if i 3bet and he flats(which is the most probable scenario), then i will most likely have to follow up on any ace or king i see on the flop or any JJ5 bla bla bla board.

You see the thing is that i preffer to flat and see the flop for cheap instead of building up a big pot with a speculative hand.

So,in my opinion flatting suited one gappers is not so bad. Please correct me and tell me why i am wrong here. ty.
 
RodneyC86

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why is 3 betting better than flatting here? the way i understand it, it's because we can take it down right there. But the thing is i don't want to take it down right there. I want to see a cheap flop.

Like ,if i 3bet and he 4bets, im burning money(which 99% of the time he won't,just saying here). Again if i 3bet and he flats(which is the most probable scenario), then i will most likely have to follow up on any ace or king i see on the flop or any JJ5 bla bla bla board.

You see the thing is that i preffer to flat and see the flop for cheap instead of building up a big pot with a speculative hand.

So,in my opinion flatting suited one gappers is not so bad. Please correct me and tell me why i am wrong here. ty.

3betting IS better it they are non fish opponents. Heck even if they are, doing it at least represents strength. Flatting that hand, you will hate 90% of all flops and many more meh flops which will be difficult to play against two opponents, and they are not even full stack at that to get implied odds.

3bet is better. Period. But folding is much much much better even especially if there are fish


And I think you got the idea of seeing a flop cheap somewhat wrong. You want to see a flop with SC and S1Gs as the aggressor! Preferably from the steal positions so that your preflop fold equity already make up most of the cost to see a flop with them.mseeing a flop if getting called while stealing with these is just gravy and also gives a big surprise element to unsuspecting opponents who will naturally put you on broadways Ax or Kx when you steal.

Remember, be aggressive B-E aggressive,
 
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vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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3betting IS better it they are non fish opponents. Heck even if they are, doing it at least represents strength. Flatting that hand, you will hate 90% of all flops and many more meh flops which will be difficult to play against two opponents, and they are not even full stack at that to get implied odds.

3bet is better. Period. But folding is much much much better even



You see Rodney, i see what you mean about representing strength. and yes, folding might be better in a perfect world of NITS. But i am not a nit. I like to play speculative hands and 34 suited type of hands and have won quite a few pots with them. I have done so by flatting and then moving in when i hit 2 pairs , a wrap or a FD. sometimes even trips.

I dont get why we should be flatting pocket pairs in situations like this when pocket pairs dont play half as well as suited connectors.(or suited one gappers.)

And lets say i do 3bet pre and he flats and the boards misses me completely. Then what. Ok , i will of course continue any aces on the flop since i 3bet pre, but if those aces are in his range then im just burning money.

In the micros where i am currently playing and from my experience, i am pretty sure flatting hands like this(assuming you want to play them) is more ABC than 3 betting them. Pot control is good before a flop comes out.


what do you think?

just asking. and thank you really for your input.
 
RodneyC86

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You see Rodney, i see what you mean about representing strength. and yes, folding might be better in a perfect world of NITS. But i am not a nit. I like to play speculative hands and 34 suited type of hands and have won quite a few pots with them. I have done so by flatting and then moving in when i hit 2 pairs , a wrap or a FD. sometimes even trips.

I dont get why we should be flatting pocket pairs in situations like this when pocket pairs dont play half as well as suited connectors.(or suited one gappers.)

And lets say i do 3bet pre and he flats and the boards misses me completely. Then what. Ok , i will of course continue any aces on the flop since i 3bet pre, but if those aces are in his range then im just burning money.

In the micros where i am currently playing and from my experience, i am pretty sure flatting hands like this(assuming you want to play them) is more ABC than 3 betting them. Pot control is good before a flop comes out.


what do you think?

just asking. and thank you really for your input.

You 'can' flat IP with these. But even with that stack size, it's quite clearly a no.

Pairs are more playable because it's very easy to tell where you are right on the flop! That and because you will absolutely love 14 percent of boards as opposed to with S1Gs
 
vinylspiros

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Yea but 3betting suited connectors or suited one gappers would suggest that you are playing LAGGY. Now lets assume your not and your playing ABC. whats the value in 3betting when villain is almost always ahead unless you see the(cheap)flop first is my question. And again im only asking because i cant seem to realize where the value comes from.
 
RodneyC86

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No value in 3betting a 57s of COURSE! you are behind the preflop raiser like every time. It's a 3bet bluff.

Yes don't do it on pure fish who calls 3bets a lot. Goes without saying really.

Against normal players though 3b>call. Remember they don't necessarily pay you off when you somehow bink 2p+, just like how setmines don't get paid all the time. And it''s MUCH harder to bink 2p+ with SC and S1Gs then to bink a set with a pair.
 
vinylspiros

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I hear you rodney. Ok, man . thanks alot for your input. I do see logic in what your saying and i am sure its the right play. I, on the other hand, DO flat these type of hands sometimes when out of position. Maybe i'm gonna try and cut down on these type of flats cause they might be long term money losers that i havent noticed. thanks again man.
 
RodneyC86

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I hear you rodney. Ok, man . thanks alot for your input. I do see logic in what your saying and i am sure its the right play. I, on the other hand, DO flat these type of hands sometimes when out of position. Maybe i'm gonna try and cut down on these type of flats cause they might be long term money losers that i havent noticed. thanks again man.

Why don't you run a filter where you flat these OOP?
 
vinylspiros

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i dont know how, havent really checked those analytical filters. i'll take alook now.
 
micromachine

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I agree that 3betting or folding pre is better than calling here. If your opponents don't fold to 3bets much then just fold it. These hands don't flop anything often enough to make 'seeing the flop cheaply' worthwhile, and you're OOP, and BB is still to act, if he 3bets you're up sh1t creek. Even if it was a non-gapped SC I would fold it.

I use hands like this as 3bet bluffs sometimes, or to steal from the BTN with. The only time I would flat is if I am BB and my call ended the PF action and there were 3+ other players in the pot. Then I would say you are 'seeing the flop cheaply'! I might also be tempted to flat IP or complete the SB after a series of limps on a passive table when I don't think the players after me will re-raise.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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I agree that 3betting or folding pre is better than calling here. If your opponents don't fold to 3bets much then just fold it. These hands don't flop anything often enough to make 'seeing the flop cheaply' worthwhile, and you're OOP, and BB is still to act, if he 3bets you're up sh1t creek. Even if it was a non-gapped SC I would fold it.

I use hands like this as 3bet bluffs sometimes, or to steal from the BTN with. The only time I would flat is if I am BB and my call ended the PF action and there were 3+ other players in the pot. Then I would say you are 'seeing the flop cheaply'! I might also be tempted to flat IP or complete the SB after a series of limps on a passive table when I don't think the players after me will re-raise.


I hear you MM. thnanks alot man. yea i see what you mean. Makes a whole lot of sense. Definitely not gonna call those hands anymore. esp OOP.
 
RodneyC86

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I agree that 3betting or folding pre is better than calling here. If your opponents don't fold to 3bets much then just fold it. These hands don't flop anything often enough to make 'seeing the flop cheaply' worthwhile, and you're OOP, and BB is still to act, if he 3bets you're up sh1t creek. Even if it was a non-gapped SC I would fold it.

I use hands like this as 3bet bluffs sometimes, or to steal from the BTN with. The only time I would flat is if I am BB and my call ended the PF action and there were 3+ other players in the pot. Then I would say you are 'seeing the flop cheaply'! I might also be tempted to flat IP or complete the SB after a series of limps on a passive table when I don't think the players after me will re-raise.

Aye.

When we say see it cheaply, we mean cheaply AFTER we consider the preflop fold equity on our opponent. So therefore, when we say cheaply, we mean MUCH cheaper than 3bb EV-wise
 
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