$5 NLHE 6-max: AQs pre shove.

Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $6.97 (VPIP: 68.18, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, hands: 22)
BTN: $5.00 (VPIP: 20.30, PFR: 12.13, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 406)
SB: $5.33 (VPIP: 18.20, PFR: 13.92, 3Bet Preflop: 5.04, Hands: 2,229)
Hero (BB): $5.29
UTG: $6.27 (VPIP: 21.85, PFR: 13.45, 3Bet Preflop: 8.62, Hands: 123)
MP: $9.28 (VPIP: 20.99, PFR: 15.17, 3Bet Preflop: 6.51, Hands: 809)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q:club: A:spade:

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.25, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.77, CO raises to $2.33, Hero raises to $5.29 and is all-in,
 
S

seventhsense

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Total posts
203
Chips
0
I think this is fine. I'm not fist pumping though.
 
J

jsh169

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Total posts
890
Awards
1
Chips
0
He's already making it 5x, so many players like to raise bigger with their premiums, I would just flat, 3 betting isn't terrible by any means, but you should be folding to his four bet if you haven't seen him do it at all prior. A pfr of 14% is pretty low.
 
S

seventhsense

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Total posts
203
Chips
0
He's already making it 5x, so many players like to raise bigger with their premiums, I would just flat, 3 betting isn't terrible by any means, but you should be folding to his four bet if you haven't seen him do it at all prior. A pfr of 14% is pretty low.

His VPIP is also 68, so he's a whale. We can 3 bet for value knowing most of his 14%+ range will call.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
His VPIP is also 68, so he's a whale. We can 3 bet for value knowing most of his 14%+ range will call.

22 hand sample size is pretty small to base too much off stats amirite?
 
J

jsh169

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Total posts
890
Awards
1
Chips
0
Thats fair, but hoping to be in great shape by 5 betting aq vs an unknown is very problematic and going to affect your bottom line.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
Thats fair, but hoping to be in great shape by 5 betting aq vs an unknown is very problematic and going to affect your bottom line.

Just the bolded part is problematic, but hey, what do I know...?
 
TheBigFinn

TheBigFinn

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Total posts
586
Awards
2
Chips
0
VPIP: 68.18, ... 3Bet Preflop: 10.00 even in just 22 hands says this guy has a very wide range to start, so you really don't know all that much about THIS hand. AQ is great against his opening range, but how much of that range is 3betting?

High variance, but you're getting the odds so... ROCK AND ROLL
 
S

seventhsense

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Total posts
203
Chips
0
how do we work out how much equity we need?

It's tough when we can't narrow his 4 bet range much. It could be true value or he could be spazzing with AJ/66 etc. But take AQ against a nuttish range of JJ+ and AK. I'm not folding to the 4 bet.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Total posts
4,298
Awards
1
Chips
17
It's tough when we can't narrow his 4 bet range much. It could be true value or he could be spazzing with AJ/66 etc. But take AQ against a nuttish range of JJ+ and AK. I'm not folding to the 4 bet.
Anything is technically possible but I think the AJ 66 spaz is unlikely and against his nutted range AQ is about a 3:1 dog.
Use that FOLD button.
 
Last edited:
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
how do we work out how much equity we need?

You have put in $0.77 and need to put in $4.52 more (assuming we shove here instead of call--which is probably best as we still have a fraction of fold equity and we remove all chances of getting bluffed off the hand post-flop). Assuming they call, the pot will be $10.60 (minus rake of $0.43 -- calling it $10.17 would give you better accuracy).

You are risking $4.52 to win $10.60. That means you need 4.52/10.60, which is 42.6% (44.4% if you account for rake).

Against a complete 10% range, you might have that. But, that's probably not his 5-bet-shove calling range. That's probably tighter, and it would be hard to really be much ahead of it. At best, you might just have break-even equity, but I suspect you'll constantly be wondering why you run into the top of someone's range in this spot (and that's because they aren't calling with the whole 10%). You're risking a LOT to just break even.

I would be very hesitant to draw strong conclusions with 22 hands. It isn't that hard to be dealt 2-3 premium hands in a 20 hand sample. This guy is probably loose, but we can't be positive he's a pre-flop maniac. I'd just fold here. I don't expect to ever be happy when the money all goes in here.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Why gamble with the whale pre? You're a poker player, he's throwing around some money, just call and play poker.

Any ways, flip some coins and gamble it up.
 
S

seventhsense

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Total posts
203
Chips
0
Why gamble with the whale pre? You're a poker player, he's throwing around some money, just call and play poker.

Any ways, flip some coins and gamble it up.

I think 3 betting is best though. He definitely calls with worse. The 4 bet then puts us in a tough spot.
 
C

ChrisMurray

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Total posts
82
Chips
0
Pre-flop: Our opponent is a whale and is probably opening a fairly tight starting range (looks passive) so I don't like 3-betting here. His range is strong, and we reduce the post-flop edge we have against a weak player, as well as inflating the pot OOP (I'm assuming he doesn't fold much). Flat this.
As played, a seemingly passive player like this is probably not going to make this move without a strong hand. If we add some spazzes in, this becomes a shove but I think we're usually against a very nutted range.
I this is a pretty simple fold.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
I think 3 betting is best though. He definitely calls with worse. The 4 bet then puts us in a tough spot.

You're right, he'll call with worse, but is that better than risking pushing him out when he does fold and you have a strong hand, or you're 4-bet? I'd prefer small ball poker here, especially when you're closing out the action pre.

3-betting isn't incorrect here, it's always about what's going to net you more long term. I like keeping my harpoon handy and keeping my initial gambling risk low w/ Moby Dicks pre-flop.
 
C

ChrisMurray

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Total posts
82
Chips
0
I think 3 betting is best though. He definitely calls with worse. The 4 bet then puts us in a tough spot.

I agree with John here. Just because he can call with worse, it doesn't make it the best play. Our post-flop edge against this sort of play is going to make us a lot more money in the long run.
Poker is all about forcing your opponent to make mistakes. Since post-flop play is far more nunanced than pre-flop, there's far more opportunities for weak players to make mistakes post-flop. Obviously if we're well ahead of his range and have a monster, we should 3-bet, but a sort of borderline hand like AQo, I prefer a flat.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
yes but remember we will be oop post flop
 
C

ChrisMurray

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Total posts
82
Chips
0
yes but remember we will be oop post flop

We'll still be OOP if 3-bet, and the only difference is we'll be playing a bigger pot against a stronger range, because he'll almost always call here.
So unfortunately there's not much we can do about that. Our hand strength makes up for it in a single-raised pot anyway.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
What hands do you suppose he's calling a 5bet with?
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
6,362
Awards
20
GR
Chips
249
oh men ... Thats why I stopped playing cash games (except sometimes zoom 9players but thats another story) .Tough decisions all the time... I play tight . i would choose to just call the raise , 5xBB is too much for 3bet for me and later I would see , dependingly on the flop ,now if it was 3BB I would have reraised but if he 4bet my 3bet I would have fold . Maybe my play is too tight ,that's why I got bluffed so many times...:D
 
C

ChrisMurray

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Total posts
82
Chips
0
What hands do you suppose he's calling a 5bet with?

Thought I'd already replied to this, turns out I didn't!

His stats (although limited) suggest he's the type of player who prefers to call than raise. So I think he calls a 5-bet nearly all the time, the problem being that he's only ever 4-betting a very strong range and therefore when he calls the 5-bet it's going to be strong.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Total posts
1,536
Awards
1
Chips
0
Thought I'd already replied to this, turns out I didn't!

His stats (although limited) suggest he's the type of player who prefers to call than raise. So I think he calls a 5-bet nearly all the time, the problem being that he's only ever 4-betting a very strong range and therefore when he calls the 5-bet it's going to be strong.

Right, I mean if we think about what specific hands: he has AA, KK, QQ, AK and maybe JJ and a long shot maybe AQs... We're behind against all of these hands with almost a coinflip against JJ or splitting with AQs as our best case scenario.. I think just considering what specific hands he plays this way and which of those hands we beat should answer the question of how we respond to his 4bet

I'd flat the 4bet and see if I hit the flop and maybe attack if I detect weakness postflop, or maybe its better to fold to the 4bet?

I'm terrible at cash though so dont take my advice on action, but that's the range of give him.
 
Top