$5 NLHE 6-max: am i bleeding money here?

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beckyg89

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Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $7.22 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 24, 3B: 11, AF: 1.0, hands: 17
Seat 2: Player2 ( $5.07 USD ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 25, 3B: 14, AF: 2.0, Hands: 72
Seat 3: Player3 ( $6.63 USD ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 24, 3B: 0, AF: 1.5, Hands: 21
Seat 4: Player4 ( $5.00 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 17, 3B: 20, AF: 0.0, Hands: 30
Seat 5: Hero ( $5.73 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 14, 3B: 7, AF: 1.9, Hands:
Seat 6: Player6 ( $7.35 USD ) - VPIP: 50, PFR: 50, 3B: 67, AF: 0.0, Hands: 6
Player2 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.05 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jh Ah ]
Player4 folds
Hero raises [$0.15 USD]
Player6 raises [$0.52 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Hero calls [$0.37 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, 2s, Th ]
Hero checks
Player6 bets [$0.53 USD]
Hero calls [$0.53 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
Hero checks
Player6 bets [$1.04 USD]
Hero calls [$1.04 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Hero checks
Player6 checks

as it turned out i was getting more than enough of the right price with his hand but is this line plus ev? is there any value in leading out on the turn or bluffing riv?
 
NCDaddy

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I don't like the pre-flop call after you've been 3 bet out of position but (unless opp is a incessant 3 bet light kinda guy, and if that were the case I'd have 4 bet)...as played I'd have considered leading out on the flop, feeler bet, ya know? Check calling makes opp think you're on a flush draw there. Lead out, he may think you have AK and he'd consider folding his QQ or JJ. If you get popped you know you're beat you can fold and save you a $1 on the turn.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Yeah, you're lighting money on fire.

I don't like calling 3b preflop. We are OOP. However, I don't fully understand stats of villain, as stated in OP. Stats are super small sample, so I don't think they're relevant anyways... Based on an unknown V, we can easily fold here.

On the flop, we only have a gutter, we will rarely (if ever) win by check/calling with ace high.

Fold pre, or 4b/fold to 5b. But if we 4b, and dude calls, be ready to barrel. Spewy. Just fold pre. I would much rather take a 4b line preflop with position.

As played, we shouldn't be chasing gutters when there are 2 spades. We have only 6 non-spade outs, and an ace could be reverse-implied odds (QJ anyone?)

Fold flop. If board was rainbow, we could peel one to rip the nuts. But board is not rainbow. Also, to peel and rip the nuts, we must assume villain has a really strong hand, and we can stack him/double up. Otherwise, it's not worth the gamble to peel with a gutter, with no implied odds to pay us off if we hit.

Regardless of the results, win or lose, we shouldn't be playing like this. It is passive, stationy, and fishy.

And furthermore, we hit a FD to go with our gutter on the turn. One more card to drag us in, and make us call it off, again.

No we should not be donking the turn. We don't want to build pots out of position with ace high. We wouldn't expect V to fold to turn donk. If we do anything, it should be C/R flop, and bombing turn. However, we shouldn't be in this spot, because we should just fold pre, or if we think V is 3b light, then ram a 4b down his throat (however, we don't have position, so I like folding).

Something tells me V has Q-J here, but I only know this because you c/c until the river, which you shouldn't be doing. Aggression wins pots. Position wins pots. You have not been aggressive, and you don't have position. You put yourself in a shitty spot by the way you played this hand. If V actually had a hand you ended up beating, it's just a lucky coincidence.

I can't stress this enough: position is very important. Perhaps more important than cards sometimes. I think this is one of the most difficult things for people to learn in poker. Position is key. It is soooooo important. If we decide to call preflop 3b, and we are OOP, we are doing things the hard way. We don't really know where we are, we are in no-man's land.

And lastly, I am just offering my input to help. If I seem rude, or blunt, that's not my intention. I just want to help you play better. :)

Disclaimer is in my signature below. Take my advice with a grain of salt.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I don't like the pre-flop call after you've been 3 bet out of position but (unless opp is a incessant 3 bet light kinda guy, and if that were the case I'd have 4 bet)...as played I'd have considered leading out on the flop, feeler bet, ya know? Check calling makes opp think you're on a flush draw there. Lead out, he may think you have AK and he'd consider folding his QQ or JJ. If you get popped you know you're beat you can fold and save you a $1 on the turn.


Ummm, no. We are not donking on this flop. That's not smart. We were just 3b preflop, we don't know what V has, and we are going to donk into him, as a "feeler"?? Good grief, no. This board is likely to hit villain in some way or another, and a donk bet is just horrific.

Just putting it out there. Don't take it personal, no disrespect intended.
 
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Fold preflop. You raised AJs in MP and got 3bet by the CO. This isn't a blind vs blind battle or a BTN vs blind battle or even a BTN vs CO battle where you can justify flatting a 3bet this lightly. You should just fold.

If you really think that the villain is 3betting you lightly (which you can't know because you have insufficient stats on the villain), then you should 4bet. It's better to 4bet than to flat-call the 3bet out of position, but it's better to fold than to 4bet.
 
Delvuter

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I think more and more it is becoming standard to 3-bet so we have to adjust...the 4-bet is the new 3-bet. If you haven't been 4-betting more and more recently you are being left behind. Folding to a 3-bet w/AJs is now considered ultra tight. Calling OOP w/AJs is to passive and is not going to win you money often. 4-bet and if they 5-bet, fold. If they call their range is narrowed down and you can proceed accordingly. If the fold to your 4-bet, yay! Also by not 4-betting you are being taken advantage of on future hands. By 4-betting you will decrease villain 3-bet percentage and again narrow their range. As played it is neither correct or incorrect to check that flop OOP. We want to c-bet more OOP, but we don't want to c-bet on wet boards and with the KT and flush draw that is a wet board. Myself I am agro so I am betting on the flop to win the pot, if he calls I will reavaluate on the turn. You check instead and villain bets, you call cause you do have a gut shot, an over card, and a backdoor flush draw. Probably a toss up on whether or not that is +-EV. If they have a K your draws beat that if you get there on the turn. Also your draws beat a set if they have a set, if you get there on the turn. So call. Turn comes and is another K. That is a scare card cause they could now have a flush, which beats all your draws. You still have a gut shot and you have upgraded from a backdoor flush draw to a flush draw to the nuts, but again a full house beats that. He could have 2's or T's in his hand, but prolly not, so I am not going to worry about a flush. So OOP on a scarey turn card you do not want to bet. He bets, does he give you the correct odds to call or not? That is the only point where it is 100% mathematically either correct or not correct to make a particular move in this hand, everything else was marginal to go one way or the other and totally up to personal playing style. This call or fold is correct based not on opinion but mathematical facts. So should you have called the turn bet? We have limited stats on the villain, but what we do have says he has played half of the 6 hands he has been in with a bet and more than half have been 3-bets. I don't care what anybody says, there is some info in there that narrows their range somewhat. So is it +EV to call their turn bet? I have no idea, I was hoping someone else worked that out. I gotta get back to work.
 
mbrenneman0

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I think more and more it is becoming standard to 3-bet so we have to adjust...the 4-bet is the new 3-bet. If you haven't been 4-betting more and more recently you are being left behind. Folding to a 3-bet w/AJs is now considered ultra tight. Calling OOP w/AJs is to passive and is not going to win you money often. 4-bet and if they 5-bet, fold. If they call their range is narrowed down and you can proceed accordingly. If the fold to your 4-bet, yay! Also by not 4-betting you are being taken advantage of on future hands. By 4-betting you will decrease villain 3-bet percentage and again narrow their range. As played it is neither correct or incorrect to check that flop OOP. We want to c-bet more OOP, but we don't want to c-bet on wet boards and with the KT and flush draw that is a wet board. Myself I am agro so I am betting on the flop to win the pot, if he calls I will reavaluate on the turn. You check instead and villain bets, you call cause you do have a gut shot, an over card, and a backdoor flush draw. Probably a toss up on whether or not that is +-EV. If they have a K your draws beat that if you get there on the turn. Also your draws beat a set if they have a set, if you get there on the turn. So call. Turn comes and is another K. That is a scare card cause they could now have a flush, which beats all your draws. You still have a gut shot and you have upgraded from a backdoor flush draw to a flush draw to the nuts, but again a full house beats that. He could have 2's or T's in his hand, but prolly not, so I am not going to worry about a flush. So OOP on a scarey turn card you do not want to bet. He bets, does he give you the correct odds to call or not? That is the only point where it is 100% mathematically either correct or not correct to make a particular move in this hand, everything else was marginal to go one way or the other and totally up to personal playing style. This call or fold is correct based not on opinion but mathematical facts. So should you have called the turn bet? We have limited stats on the villain, but what we do have says he has played half of the 6 hands he has been in with a bet and more than half have been 3-bets. I don't care what anybody says, there is some info in there that narrows their range somewhat. So is it +EV to call their turn bet? I have no idea, I was hoping someone else worked that out. I gotta get back to work.

Sorry but i laughed out loud about this. maybe youre right, maybe not, but yikes! i hope poker doesnt devolve into a game of preflop chicken



As far as OP, im on the fence, i think the call pre could be okay, but you dont really have odds to call him down to the river.
 
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Fold pre to the 3bet. You'll get better opportunities soon.

@Delvuter that is terrible advice and maniacal.
 
Delvuter

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Sorry but i laughed out loud about this. maybe youre right, maybe not, but yikes! i hope poker doesnt devolve into a game of preflop chicken



As far as OP, im on the fence, i think the call pre could be okay, but you dont really have odds to call him down to the river.

I never have an original idea. This idea comes from an article I read on poker player, a reputable poker site.

http://www.pokerplayer365.com/poker-strategy/four-betting/
 
NCDaddy

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Ummm, no. We are not donking on this flop. That's not smart. We were just 3b preflop, we don't know what V has, and we are going to donk into him, as a "feeler"?? Good grief, no. This board is likely to hit villain in some way or another, and a donk bet is just horrific.

Just putting it out there. Don't take it personal, no disrespect intended.


None taken. But, to be clear, I didn't like the pre flop call.....How else do you try to win the hand? You can check fold, sure. But why not try to take a stab at it as the original raiser? You're repping AK with a lead bet.
 
Delvuter

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Interesting article. Doesn't sound like 4betting should be done lightly though by the tone of the article.

Right. AJs would is just barely making the cutoff. I am a bit of a LAG or try to be, so it fits my style, but yeah.
 
Beanfacekilla

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None taken. But, to be clear, I didn't like the pre flop call.....How else do you try to win the hand? You can check fold, sure. But why not try to take a stab at it as the original raiser? You're repping AK with a lead bet.



Not against someone who thinks (repping AK). Donk bets are universally weak feeler bets at micros and small stakes. I punish people all the time for doing this to me. I love punishing people who donk bet.

In my experience, it is rarely a strong hand that donks into me. Like 95%+, it is weak hands that can't even stand a raise. So I raise them with air all the time, and fold them out.

Just stop donk betting. It is not a strategy that works against anyone who is even slightly good.
 
Delvuter

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I have read most of Harrington's books and he refers to "donk bets" as probe bets. The reason we make probe bets is to potentially win the pot, we also get information on where we stand. If we c/c we learn nothing and can't determine if the turn card was good or bad for us based on what we could have learned from probe betting. We get information by the other player either calling or re-raising. Do not take donk bets out of your arsenal, that would be an error. When we do donk bet however we want to bet 1/3 of the pot in lieu of 1/2-full pot on a c-bet. That bet size will counter what beeanface does to punish donk betters. By donk betting less than a standard c-bet we take away the incentive for them to re-raise and also it is easier to call a re-raise when the original bet was lower.
 
NCDaddy

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I have read most of Harrington's books and he refers to "donk bets" as probe bets. The reason we make probe bets is to potentially win the pot, we also get information on where we stand. If we c/c we learn nothing and can't determine if the turn card was good or bad for us based on what we could have learned from probe betting. We get information by the other player either calling or re-raising. Do not take donk bets out of your arsenal, that would be an error. When we do donk bet however we want to bet 1/3 of the pot in lieu of 1/2-full pot on a c-bet. That bet size will counter what beeanface does to punish donk betters. By donk betting less than a standard c-bet we take away the incentive for them to re-raise and also it is easier to call a re-raise when the original bet was lower.

Well put. I'm not going to stop "donk" betting....or, probe betting (feeler bet) if I think I can take the pot down. Especially in this situation where OP was the original aggressor. It' not like OP limp called a raise. Completely different there.
 
mbrenneman0

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Well put. I'm not going to stop "donk" betting....or, probe betting (feeler bet) if I think I can take the pot down. Especially in this situation where OP was the original aggressor. It' not like OP limp called a raise. Completely different there.
I think harringtons advice on "probe betting" might be outdated.
Yes there are times when you should bet OOP, but information should never be a primary reason to bet (a probe bet is a bet for information)

A donk bet is a bet from OOP when you are not the aggressor. I'm sure there are times to do this but they are very rare.

A bet from OOP when you are the aggressor is probably more accurately just considered a Cbet.

There are only two acceptable primary reasons for raising and you should consciously know which one it is. The first is for value, and the second reason is for a bluff. Information can be a side effect of these bets, but it should never be the primary reason. A Cbet can be either as a bluff or for value. But in low stakes you should be betting for value more often than betting as a bluff

By probe betting, you're giving off more information than you are receiving
 
Beanfacekilla

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Well put. I'm not going to stop "donk" betting....or, probe betting (feeler bet) if I think I can take the pot down. Especially in this situation where OP was the original aggressor. It' not like OP limp called a raise. Completely different there.



The OP called a V's 3b preflop, he is not the aggressor.

The point being, donk bets look weak, because they are weak. It is some trend alot of people are doing. All you are accomplishing is telling V (if V is competent) that you don't have shit.
 
NCDaddy

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Hero was the original raiser/aggressor. That's my point. By raising/calling then leading out with that flop....you are CLEARLY representing AK there and you COULD make JJ or QQ (which are two very plausible hands with the 3 bet) to fold on the flop. Some would 4 bet AK in EP pre-flop...I get that. I don't like to. If you're raised after your "whatever you want to call it bet" on the flop (donk, c-bet, probe, feeler) you can let it go. But why just give up the pot with a check? That makes no sense to me. You guys keep saying you shouldn't lead out. So, the only other option is to check. Then what.....fold? Raise? What's your plan of attack here? The only clear way to win this pot (as played) is to lead out.
 
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IPlay

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Not just bleeding but spewing like a fire hydrant
 
mbrenneman0

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Hero was the original raiser/aggressor. That's my point. By raising/calling then leading out with that flop....you are CLEARLY representing AK there and you COULD make JJ or QQ (which are two very plausible hands with the 3 bet) to fold on the flop. Some would 4 bet AK in EP pre-flop...I get that. I don't like to. If you're raised after your "whatever you want to call it bet" on the flop (donk, c-bet, probe, feeler) you can let it go. But why just give up the pot with a check? That makes no sense to me. You guys keep saying you shouldn't lead out. So, the only other option is to check. Then what.....fold? Raise? What's your plan of attack here? The only clear way to win this pot (as played) is to lead out.

I think you're mistaking the 3bet calling range for the 3bet raising range. 3bet calling range is wider than 3bet raising range most of the time. So villains 3bet is representing a stronger hand than our call. Also we are not the aggressor because the villain took aggression from us when he raised.

By donking the flop, only better hands are calling us and worse hands are folding. But what worse hands does villain have? Villain is calling with any pocket pair or any ace which he probably has since he 3bet. (so best case scenario we split with an ace) raising OOP is not just lighting money on fire, its also burying the ashes.

Lets say we donk here on the flop... What do we do if villain raises our donk bet? Call? Fold? If were going to bet/fold, why not just check/fold.

You do not have to win this pot. Infact you probably aren't going to win this pot. Just check/fold the flop.
 
NCDaddy

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Fair enough. I get what you're saying, though I don't agree. And yes, I'd have bet/folded if raised. I already said that. I'd have avoided it all by mucking pre-flop.
 
Delvuter

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At minute 32:11 Elezra makes a "feeler" bet, he limped in pre, and bet post. XKK was on the board and the guy following him re-raised. Everyone folded and when Elezra mucks his cards he says, "Glad I put a "feeler" bet out there". Now this is a professional cash poker player playing high stakes buy in for $150,000, do we want to take Elezra's word for it that "feeler" bets are good, or someone on this forum???

 
Beanfacekilla

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At minute 32:11 Elezra makes a "feeler" bet, he limped in pre, and bet post. XKK was on the board and the guy following him re-raised. Everyone folded and when Elezra mucks his cards he says, "Glad I put a "feeler" bet out there". Now this is a professional cash poker player playing high stakes buy in for $150,000, do we want to take Elezra's word for it that "feeler" bets are good, or someone on this forum???

Poker After Dark HD - Cash Game $150K [Episode 2] - YouTube



Lol. You are comparing apples to oranges. They aren't playing $5 NLHE against droolers and calling stations here.
 
Beanfacekilla

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And furthermore, what happened? He got punished. He just gifted that bet to the villain.
 
NCDaddy

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I agree that $5NLHE is a bit different as far as skill set. However, the principle of the feeler is the same. You can win the pot. You can gain information. You could lose more money if you DON'T do. Say for instance you check the flop and villain checks. Ace on the turn, instead of the K in this scenario. Now what do you do? You have zero clue what villain has.
 
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