$5 NLHE 6-max: AA vs. turn raise

M

micromoi

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SB: $4.96 (99.2 bb)
BB: $5.06 (101.2 bb)
UTG: $6.94 (138.8 bb) 14/12 after 90 hands
Hero (MP): $8.95 (179 bb)
CO: $4.19 (83.8 bb)
BTN: $3.41 (68.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A A
UTG raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.45, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97) 2 T 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.61, UTG calls $0.61

Turn: ($2.19) 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.38, UTG raises to $5.88, Hero folds
 
TimovieMan

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And again no suits... :(


It's probably correct. A check/raise on the turn after flatting the flop is often a monster, so expect him to have TT/99/88 here.
Unless he's aggro enough to do this with JJ+ (but those would've raised the flop, imo) or a flush draw (if there is one - you HAVE to include the suits, bro)...
 
c9h13no3

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In a 3-bet pot against an UTG nit, call. Villain will be playing JJ+ this way, and probably doesn't have T9/QJ in his UTG range.
 
DrazaFFT

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14/12 guy dont c3b T9 or QJ oop (maybe open sometimes but mostlikely dont c3b them) if the board is rainbow, tight players like to check call/check raise sets, you can be behind here often, myself never folds this situation, that is why i have such big swings when i play, maybe the best advice here is fold but i honestly dont see me folding
 
John A

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If you want to get better at this game, which I presume you do, then put your opponent on a range of hands and ask... "hey, does this sound right CC?" And we'll tell you. Then you take that range and punch it into your equity calculator and figure out if you're ahead or not. Easy.

If you want to keep spinning your wheels at poker, post up hands like this.
 
M

MinhANguyen

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140bb deep, this is alright to bet/fold. I think checking loses some value, and I think I'd rather check back QQ/JJ here. 100bb deep probably standard to call off, as he could be spazzing with QQ if the board got draw heavy. Don't think JJ plays like this really. He has SDV, and shouldn't expect to get called by much worse when he blocks straight draws and you still have QQ-AA/some 1010 in your range. I think he folds 88/99 sometimes pre and sometimes vs 3-bet, and plays QQ like this enough to justify stacking off 100bb deep. 140bb deep I'm sure you'll see a set/QJs here 90%+ of the time.
 
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WVHillbilly

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140bb deep, this is alright to bet/fold. I think checking loses some value, and I think I'd rather check back QQ/JJ here. 100bb deep probably standard to call off, as he could be spazzing with QQ if the board got draw heavy. Don't think JJ plays like this really. He has SDV, and shouldn't expect to get called by much worse when he blocks straight draws and you still have QQ-AA/some 1010 in your range. I think he folds 88/99 sometimes pre and sometimes vs 3-bet, and plays QQ like this enough to justify stacking off 100bb deep. 140bb deep I'm sure you'll see a set/QJs here 90%+ of the time.

This guy doesn't open QJ or 9T UTG. TT+every time. We beat everything in his range except TT. Easy call.
 
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MinhANguyen

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This guy doesn't open QJ or 9T UTG. TT+every time. We beat everything in his range except TT. Easy call.

It's unlikely he opens QJs, but I still give him probably one combo that plays this way. My stats are similar, like 16/14, and I open QJs UTG sometimes and sometimes don't. But even if he has 0 QJs, this is a really easy fold. We also lose to 99/88, which are definitely in his range. He should be opening something like 88+, AJo+ from UTG with those stats. Since we're 140bb deep, he's should ALWAYS call 88/99 here. We 3-bet his nitty UTG range from MP while deep-stacked, so he should perceive our range to be pretty strong.

I seriously doubt JJ plays like this, especially 140bb. And I don't think QQ either, since we have T9s in our range and some 1010/99, and all QQ-AA in our range. Sure, QQ can play like this 100bb deep. But 140bb? Not unless he's a fish who does not understand how strong we are when we barrel this turn.

Just because his range when we reach the turn may be xx+ does not mean he x/r all combos of it or plays it this way. He may CR only nutted hands on this turn (88-1010), even though his range for reaching the turn may be 88-AA. X/c, x/r or call flop raise turn is a pretty nutted line, especially in a 3-bet pot deep. We are pretty much crushed here almost everytime, ainec.
 
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N

nkat

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"Not unless he's a fish who does not understand how strong we are when we barrel this turn."

it's not that unikely
 
M

MinhANguyen

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So you're basically hoping a TAG 14/12 who is likely postionally aware and is aware of six-max tables dynamics is fishy enough to be spazzing out 140bb deep with enough combos of JJ/QQ/some slowplayed KK to justify calling off when he has 9 combos of sets in his range that has us absolutely crushed (drawing to 2 outs) and probably 1 combo of QJs that has us drawing dead?

And stop trying to be a smartass. That response was uncalled for.
 
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c9h13no3

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I think Minh's favorite thing is folding overpairs in 3-bet pots. Followed closely by set-mining while barely having implied odds.

To be fair, I do think a lot of this difference between his opinion and mine is how other players perceive us. I used to have a 10% 3-bet rate, and run around 30/28. An over pair was the nuts, and I was constantly played back at. If Minh plays at 16/14, people aren't going to mess with him, and they'll be constantly trying to set-mine or make big hands against him.
 
M

MinhANguyen

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I think Minh's favorite thing is folding overpairs in 3-bet pots. Followed closely by set-mining while barely having implied odds.

To be fair, I do think a lot of this difference between his opinion and mine is how other players perceive us. I used to have a 10% 3-bet rate, and run around 30/28. An over pair was the nuts, and I was constantly played back at. If Minh plays at 16/14, people aren't going to mess with him, and they'll be constantly trying to set-mine or make big hands against him.

So can you come up with a reasonable range where a 140bb deep-stacked TAG x/c x/r turn with in a 3-bet pot UTG vs MP of which we are ahead of? And what do you think UTG perceives our range to be when we double barrel here 140bb deep MP vs UTG? The bottom of our range really is flush draws/QQ. Even then, we should be checking back flush draws/QQ when he calls that flop. JJ just checks back in position. And if you give his range 100% combos of JJ/QQ/KK/AA that plays this exact way with these dynamics or something like that which some of us are saying itt, then there's not really much to discuss.

On Bovada 100NL, people can't track my stats or know my tendencies well given the anonymous tables. I really only switched back to 16/14 to reduce variance recently after experiencing my first very long downswing. I used to be 22/18 and play pretty aggro. I did probably profit a little more playing LAG, but since it's much higher variance and people can't track my stats anyway. I don't really care about reverting back to 16/14 for the time being on Bovada, especially since it has worked really well for me and has been pretty low variance. Everyone is super loose preflop on Bovada btw and you do not have very much FE equity preflop. Yeah, playing with 10 or J high OOP on Bovada UTG is a good way to burn money.

Yeah, people are playing back at you because you're 30/28. Doesn't take a really good player to figure out that you should be snapping AA here if your perceived image is wild/super loose aggro. With no given informaion on history, this is a fold.

And where have I ever advocated set-mining with unfavorable implied odds? And even if I did, which I don't think I did, it's not at the frequency you're suggesting it is at.

Some players' favorite thing to do is advocate hero calling spots where we're way behind vs an unknown's range. Or use BvB or Blind v BTN as an excuse in justifying a terrible stack-off at micro stakes where most players don't fully understand these dynamics to be playing back often enough, are level 1 thinkers, and are generally passive. That's my favorite thing to read.
 
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nkat

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So you're basically hoping a TAG 14/12 who is likely postionally aware and is aware of six-max tables dynamics is fishy enough to be spazzing out 140bb deep with enough combos of JJ/QQ/some slowplayed KK to justify calling off when he has 9 combos of sets in his range that has us absolutely crushed (drawing to 2 outs) and probably 1 combo of QJs that has us drawing dead?

And stop trying to be a smartass. That response was uncalled for.


it was an objective statement/response...

And to the above, yeah.. at 5nl I do. You have good analysis and give players a little too much credit. If there's a read that the player is playing well then fine, but overplaying QQ,KK is certainly a reasonable guess here on a drawy board.

My basic point is that you need a good read to fold this, not to call. If you have a good read, not just "they're 14/12", then your analysis is solid, if not, then their ranges are wider than you'd think. Because you're a good hand reader/logical player it is easy to project that they have the same skills as you.. not always the best assumption, especially at these stakes.
 
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alipalip

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Why not 4 bet preflop ?

Because Villian just called not raised.
Anyway I think you played corectly. Most of the times it will me 88,99,TT or even QJs, also As IPlay sad if you got info about V is aggro enough to play like this with JJ+ you can make the call. Against unknow fold is not a bad move
 
Aces2w1n

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id like to see a larger 3bet size ... this opponent most likely isnt opening wide utg... lets extract more value :)



turn is shove given our tight our opponent is... hes not thr type to get a straight here tho prolly play jj this way or qq kk.. set of tens prolly only hand we fear
 
D

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go for it

Never fold the AA in that spot. A lot of straight draws and maybe flush draws???? You didn't give suits. But even if behind, you are only really hurt against a set which would probably want action, not to push action out. Likely up against a draw or 10 J maybe.
 
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I'm folding all day here, but yea suits would be good to know. Aces is just one pair after all and this board destroys one pair.
 
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