$5 NLHE 6-max: 88 in 3bet pot OOP

_dogmeat

_dogmeat

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Should I even be 3betting in that spot? idk why I cbet that flop. Villain's range has a lot of Ax's. What else could he flat call IP? KQ, KJs, QJs maybe, and bigger PP's.
Which is:
QQ-99,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo

vs that range 88 has about 45% equity (I'm not sure if that's a decent flat calling range. It may be a bit too wide?). So I guess it's profitable if we count the FEq we have and the times we hit a set. But I'm not sure. I definitely can't flat here, that I'm sure of.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com


Hero (SB) ($8.63)
BB ($5.17)
UTG ($4.72)
MP ($5.31)
CO ($5)
Button ($5)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8:diamond:, 8:heart:
1 fold, MP bets $0.18, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, 1 fold, MP calls $0.27

Flop: ($0.95) 2:club:, A:heart:, A:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, MP calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.15) J:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.12, Hero???
 
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ben_rhyno

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Why can't you flat? Effective stack is 106BB's so you have odds for set mining, despite being oop. I 3-be there though aswell. Flop c-bet is fine, his range is not entirely Ax and 2 on the flop makes it unlikely, so the flop is safeish
 
_dogmeat

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ben_rhyno said:
Why can't you flat? Effective stack is 106BB's so you have odds for set mining, despite being oop. I 3-be there though aswell. Flop c-bet is fine, his range is not entirely Ax and 2 on the flop makes it unlikely, so the flop is safeish
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Ok, but what about the turn? Do I fire a second barrel? He still might have a bigger PP and I could end up valuetowning myself.
If he flats the turn bet, then what do I do on the river? If I bet, same as above. If I don't bet, he has the perfect spot to try and steal.
 
ben_rhyno

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3-betting here takes away the set mining aspect and leads to a bloated pot oop with a medium strength hand that you can be easily moved off on high boards, so I change my mind and decide that flatting pre is best, as 3-betting, then c-betting an A high board turns your hand into a bluff when it has legit showdown value. In this case, c-betting the flop is more favourable as it's less likely villain has an A.
As played on the turn, it seems weak but I'm probably folding. I'm not sure that villains at 5NL are competent at floating so you can be pretty sure he has at least a higher PP/ Jx or even an A.
 
acky100

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definitely flatting pocket pairs as set mining is way more EV than 3betting.
Think i like checking the flop and calling a bet with out showdown value, pretty sure villain isnt going to respect our c-bet on this flop, then again it could be considered value betting cause its unlikely he has an ace, but checking and calling can induce more bluffs, and he's likely to slow down and reveal his hand strength once you call a bet off him. Not sure which is better play though
 
bgomez89

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Why did you 3bet in the first place
 
_dogmeat

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bgomez89 said:
Why did you 3bet in the first place
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Honestly, I'm not really sure. Probably to get the initiative. I tend to flat some of the time and 3bet some of the time. But I'm really unsure if I should be 3betting here. If we're going to be playing for set value, do we flat 66? 22?
 
c9h13no3

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acky100 said:
definitely flatting pocket pairs as set mining is way more EV than 3betting.
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Stop making things up. I might agree with you that flatting is the best play, but you're just pulling this argument out of thin air.

Two things jump out to me in this hand:

1) You don't know if your opponent can be exploited by 3-betting, but you did it anyways.

2) You made your 3-bet really small.
 
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c9h13no3 said:
Stop making things up. I might agree with you that flatting is the best play, but you're just pulling this argument out of thin air.

Two things jump out to me in this hand:

1) You don't know if your opponent can be exploited by 3-betting, but you did it anyways.

2) You made your 3-bet really small.
Click to expand...

Yes and yes. 1st, I like having the initiative OOP and most people fold to a cbet in a 3bet pot without a hand. And it's hard to hit a flop.
2nd, I thought he had made a standard 3x raise, so I made a standard 9x 3bet.

Although, you're right on the first one. He was definitely an unknown and I probably should have thought twice about 3betting in this spot.
 
c9h13no3

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_dogmeat said:
Yes and yes. 1st, I like having the initiative OOP and most people fold to a cbet in a 3bet pot without a hand. And it's hard to hit a flop.
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Well, a few things about this situation make me want to set mine against an unknown.

1) We have 88, not 22. 88 has significantly more postflop value.
2) Most players at the microstakes raise very tightly. Stats like 40/3 are pretty common, and the players who aren't fish are usually 9/6 nits. I think you've got a big chunk of implied odds here.
3) The raiser is raising from UTG+1, so its not like he's stealing with a wide range.

I think those factors make this a call pre. But I like where your head is at as far as playing OOP with initiative.
 
_dogmeat

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c9h13no3 said:
Well, a few things about this situation make me want to set mine against an unknown.

1) We have 88, not 22. 88 has significantly more postflop value.
2) Most players at the microstakes raise very tightly. Stats like 40/3 are pretty common, and the players who aren't fish are usually 9/6 nits. I think you've got a big chunk of implied odds here.
3) The raiser is raising from UTG+1, so its not like he's stealing with a wide range.

I think those factors make this a call pre. But I like where your head is at as far as playing OOP with initiative.
Click to expand...

I think I should stop 3betting so light when the raiser is in earlier position. OTB or the CO, sure, but OOP it's just tricky.

What do you think about this line: flat pre and c/r dry flops without a face card. That's often the line I'd take if I don't 3bet here.

What about donking the flop? I think I should start implementing donks more into my game since most people don't really know how to react. Actually, this might get a bit too big, so I might post it in the cash game thread. But still, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
 
acky100

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c9h13no3 said:
Stop making things up. I might agree with you that flatting is the best play, but you're just pulling this argument out of thin air
Click to expand...

Was only trying to recall things i've read and been helped with by others, didn't intend on making things up, Sorry.
 
c9h13no3

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_dogmeat said:
What do you think about this line: flat pre and c/r dry flops without a face card. That's often the line I'd take if I don't 3bet here.

What about donking the flop? I think I should start implementing donks more into my game since most people don't really know how to react. Actually, this might get a bit too big, so I might post it in the cash game thread. But still, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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What I see here is that you're trying to continue on more flops than just the ones you don't flop a set on. That's generally a good thing to think about, but in this case I don't like it. You're pushing it too far.

If you're set-mining, its because you believe your opponent has a strong range. You think he's got a hand he likes, and won't fold much when you put in a lot of action when you flop your set.

Check/raise bluffing flops goes completely OPPOSITE of this idea. You've initially called to flop a stronger hand than your opponent's strong hand so that you can get paid off. Check/raising a ton of flops suggest that now you expect your opponent to fold when you're putting in action. You can't have it both ways. He's either got a strong range & won't fold, or has a weak range and will fold a lot. Sure, their range strength will vary by what the flop is to some degree, but not enough to be able to have it both ways.

Its good to think about a few extra areas where you can do more than just set-mine. If I had to pick any of the ideas you proposed, I'd start with donk-leading on some flops that we can get called by worse on. But in general setmining is profitable because your opponent has good cards, so you shouldn't be looking for a ton of flops to continue on without flopping a set.

So plan your hands out a little better. If you're calling to set-mine, then stick to that plan on most flops. Because otherwise you start getting into areas where you make illogical actions (which usually means losing dollaz).
 
bgomez89

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When is it ever ok to bluff c/r dry, low flops with small pps?
 
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c9h13no3 said:
What I see here is that you're trying to continue on more flops than just the ones you don't flop a set on. That's generally a good thing to think about, but in this case I don't like it. You're pushing it too far.

If you're set-mining, its because you believe your opponent has a strong range. You think he's got a hand he likes, and won't fold much when you put in a lot of action when you flop your set.

Check/raise bluffing flops goes completely OPPOSITE of this idea. You've initially called to flop a stronger hand than your opponent's strong hand so that you can get paid off. Check/raising a ton of flops suggest that now you expect your opponent to fold when you're putting in action. You can't have it both ways. He's either got a strong range & won't fold, or has a weak range and will fold a lot. Sure, their range strength will vary by what the flop is to some degree, but not enough to be able to have it both ways.

Its good to think about a few extra areas where you can do more than just set-mine. If I had to pick any of the ideas you proposed, I'd start with donk-leading on some flops that we can get called by worse on. But in general setmining is profitable because your opponent has good cards, so you shouldn't be looking for a ton of flops to continue on without flopping a set.

So plan your hands out a little better. If you're calling to set-mine, then stick to that plan on most flops. Because otherwise you start getting into areas where you make illogical actions (which usually means losing dollaz).
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Yeah, I'd say pushing it too far and not planning ahead are one of my bigger leaks.
When I was referring to c/r'ing, I didn't mean this particular hand (where we should be set mining), but in general with any hand. Because villain's range isn't that strong in MP and we'll get a lot of folds when he doesn't have an OP.

bgomez89 said:
When is it ever ok to bluff c/r dry, low flops with small pps?
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I'm currently trying out some new things and that's one of them. Have to admit, it's not going as well as I thought it would. But yeah, pps aren't a good candidate for that. It's a lot better to have two OC, where you have 6 outs, instead of just 2.
 
c9h13no3

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_dogmeat said:
I'm currently trying out some new things and that's one of them. Have to admit, it's not going as well as I thought it would.
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If villain is raising 15% (probably a typical TAG range, most players at 5NL will be raising much tighter), their range will be about 30% overpairs, sets, and flush draws on a random flop of like 268tt. Since you need about 40% folds to make a check/raise profitable, and your opponent will sometimes refuse to give up with hands he should fold, its a really thin play.
 
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