$5 NLHE 6-max: 5 bet pot 200+bb deep

GreenDaddy1

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party poker 6 max Fast Forward, no stats, and no reads either.

Folds to Button ($6.06) who opens for .15
SB ($10.60) 3 bets to .50

Hero in BB with AQo ($11.75) 4 bets to $1.25
Button folds.
SB 5 bets to $2.98
Hero calls.
Pot is $6.11

FLOP Js 5c Ts
SB c bets $2.90. Hero calls. Pot now $11.91

TURN Qh
SB checks.
Hero thinks.... and then shoves remaining $5.92 in

(next action & result to follow discussion)



So firstly, I have to call pre here if AQo is part of my value 4 bet range, right?

Secondly, is the call on the flop up for debate at all? Would be madness to fold, and I don't feel I have a reason to raise. Therefore, check.

Lastly, is the shove reasonable given villain has checked on the turn? Surely he barrels for value here if he likes the board, indicating maybe he has not improved on his hole cards?
The board looks dangerous and I even may get a fold here without the best hand as I could be seen to be representing the straight having piled it on that Q hitting the board. Am I being too optimistic to think a 5NL player could fold out KK, or even AA, here? I would think most would struggle!


Villains range, unless a maniac or fish, is probably limited to something like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ? (Though arguably, it could just be AA, KK & AK - there are some very tight players at 5NL fast fold) Surely AK, QQ or JJ would have bet turn to keep building this huge pot. KK might be in two minds, fearing not just the straight but me having AA. AQ potentially more wary than I was inclined to be.
In the heat of the moment I convinced myself I was likely now just facing either AA (going to lose without a lucky river), KK (losing but could maybe scare them to fold) or AQ (and therefore likely to chop pot), or some complete fishy nonsense that I had beat. I figured I had a ton of fold equity generated by that wet board and the villain turn check if I shoved now rather than getting into some awkward river situation. Additionally there were still cards that could drop on the river to improve my hand if I did get called so all would not be lost, although at least some of them were probably being blocked.

Having looked over it with more time on my hands it seems a bit bonkers. Is this much aggression appropriate when I'm deep stacked and staring down the abyss of losing a very big pot? Do I need to be comfortable doing this sort of thing when getting involved in huge pots that come about from 4 and 5 betting? :confused:
 
PaxMundi

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This is an easy fold to the 5bet pre for me the 4bet is surely a semi bluff ?. I dont have AQ as a default value 4bet and especially not 200bb deep. Post flop ehhhh i dont know on the flop tbh you could raise and should have the fold equity to do that and you should have 30%+ equity if you get it in. Although i do think that's a bit spewy so i lookforward to reading other opinions.
 
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c9h13no3

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Fold to the 5-bet. And wtf, why are you talking about fold equity when nothing better ever folds the turn? The flop was your shot to jam it in.
 
Alucard

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I'm just folding preflop to the 5bet. It's hardly ever a bluff at 5NL this deep unless you have good reads which you don't. Still you'd have a really tough time playing AQo there.
Also consider the turn which is imo the worst card for you because almost any value hand that 5bets you there beats you. TT+,AK (TT,JJ s are very thin as well)
Also I don't think you have any fold equity on the flop even vs AK if you jam after V had already put 100BBs in

he needs like 25% with AK and he has way more s per my calculations
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: JdTs3c
Equity Win Tie
BU 52.41% 40.42% 11.99% { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
SB 47.59% 35.60% 11.99% { AKs, AKo }
 
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fundiver199

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4-betting AQo is certainly not for value, and in general cold 4-betting as a bluff at 5NL is a little bit to fancy for me. Its still a limit, where a lot of players are not all that interested in folding, since they are playing for the price of a cup of coffee.

And of course this being the new wonderfull anonymous partypoker, we have zero reads on the Villain. So he could easily be a recreational player, who would rather lose his sons education fond than allowing himself to be bluffed by the "bully" to his left.

AQo is doing pretty fine against a resteal range from SB, and you have position on him. So why not just call and keep all his dominated suited aces and other bluffs in his range. Simply folding and zooming on the next hand would not be a big mistake either.

As played you clearly have to fold to the 5-bet. AQ is a lot worse than AK here, because well you are dominated by AK, and you also dont block KK, which is another typical 5-betting hand.

Seeing the flop yes I think, you have to call with your gutshot and two overs, but the whole situation just suck. And it suck even more, when you improve to top pair on the turn, because you still dont beat any of his value 5-bets. AK just made a straight, and QQ-AA still has you beat as well.

And no you are not getting him off an overpair in this massive pot, so you are essentially hoping, that he was bluffing with, I dont know, A5, and that you now somehow have the best hand.

You can check behind or bet, and I honestly dont think, it really matter, because if he ship the river, you kind of have to hate life and pay him off. So the important point is to avoid the whole situation by either not 4-betting or folding to the 5-bet.
 
GreenDaddy1

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Ok, being too fancy for 5NL basically, and sounds like I need to trim back on the 4 betting. Thanks all for the feedback.

Villain folded here.

What do you guys suggest for a 3 bet defense strategy at 5NL?

I've been doing the following:

Out of position: 4 betting JJ+, A5s (bluff), AK, AQ (about 2.2x the size of the 3 bet)
In position: 4 bet KK+, AK, AQ, A5s-A2s (bluffs) / call TT, JJ, QQ, AJs, KQs, KJs

I like the concept of 4 bet or fold out of position.

Should I abandon the bluffs altogether and tighten up? To something like:
OOP: 4 bet value AA, KK, AK / 4 bet semi bluff AQ / call QQ
IP: 4 bet value AA, KK, AK / 4 bet semi bluff AQ / call QQ, JJ, AJs, KQs

And then which hands should be calling a 5 bet? AA, KK & AK? Or should I tighten right up and only throw down with AA at that point?

Will go off and re-read some strategy, but interested in what you might suggest for this limit :)
 
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Alucard

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usually fastforward/zoom games are much more aggressive than usual. So being over aggressive pays up. But you'd have to filter good players from bad players and play exploitatively
I played some fastforward games after they ban huds during the promo 5NL & 10NL & the games seemed very fishy. So what I'd do is not doing anything fancy & just play your game & try to get much value as possible.
But I dislike playing there anymore though. You'd have a hard time analysing your plays, winrate etc & wouldn't be able to improve your game
 
PaxMundi

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Ok, being too fancy for 5NL basically, and sounds like I need to trim back on the 4 betting. Thanks all for the feedback.

Villain folded here.

What do you guys suggest for a 3 bet defense strategy at 5NL?

I've been doing the following:

Out of position: 4 betting JJ+, A5s (bluff), AK, AQ (about 2.2x the size of the 3 bet)
In position: 4 bet KK+, AK, AQ, A5s-A2s (bluffs) / call TT, JJ, QQ, AJs, KQs, KJs

I like the concept of 4 bet or fold out of position.

Should I abandon the bluffs altogether and tighten up? To something like:
OOP: 4 bet value AA, KK, AK / 4 bet semi bluff AQ / call QQ
IP: 4 bet value AA, KK, AK / 4 bet semi bluff AQ / call QQ, JJ, AJs, KQs

And then which hands should be calling a 5 bet? AA, KK & AK? Or should I tighten right up and only throw down with AA at that point?

Will go off and re-read some strategy, but interested in what you might suggest for this limit :)

With 3bets you can use different strategies vs different people including bluffs or just a wider value range. But a general rule of thumb add more suited connector type hands oop 87s 98s TJs and more high equity hands like KJo KQo QJo ip as bluffs along with a value range. Here are some polerized ranges and even though they are a little old they are still pretty decent i think as a guide for building your own ranges.
https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=309916&page=1

For your 4bets you can follow a pretty simple 60/40 value bluff ratio and to get that just divide your value combos by 1.5. So say you 4bet for value with QQ+ AK from the c/o thats 34 combos. So 34/1.5 - 22 so you want 22 bluff combos so something like A5s-A2s,KTs,QTs. And you can use the best offsuite Ax your not calling with an as optional 4bet bluff so say ATo.
 
GreenDaddy1

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Ah some more homework for me. Very helpful, thanks :)
 
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fundiver199

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Ranges preflop depend on positions of the players involved. UTG+1 3-betting UTG is a lot stronger action than BB 3-betting SB, so your range for defending has to different as well. AA and KK is obviously pretty much always going to be a 4-bet for value, and sometimes QQ as well, but actually even AK is typically more of a bluff 4-bet with blockers.

I dont play on anonymous or HUD-free tables, so what I do in real time will certainly also depend on my reads on the Villain and the cold callers, if there are any. If the 3-better is a nitty guy with a 3% 3-bet over the last 2.000 hands, why bother to get involved, unless I have the goods.

But if he is maniac splashing chips around to have fun, then certainly AQ can be a 4-bet for value, since his range is just way to wide. I have occationally gotten AJ all in preflop and been good against a maniac.

And of course cold 4-betting is not the same as 4-betting as the original raiser. When you cold 4-bet, you are not yet involved in the action, and you are up against two uncapped ranges rather than one. So frankly you have a ton of incentive to just get out of the way and let the other two goofballs fight it out.
 
PaxMundi

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Thanks a bunch for this link, that thread had some gold in it despite being a few years old. Also got me watching a few of W34z3l's vids and that lead on to some others on similar topics. Shaved a lot of rough edges of both my pre flop and post flop game :)

Im glad you enjoyed the info he puts out some very good content.
 
Misaki

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I would like to add that I wouldn't follow blindly weazel's ranges. They are too wide for many players and probably many combinations wouldn't make you a profit. Because it's easy to copy ranges. Problem is that if you have leaks postflops It can destroy your winrate. Players should understand what kind of hands should we play from different position, vs different opponents and what gameplan we have on particular board. And that's essential of poker. If you won't build decent strategy postflop it will stop you on micro forever.
Nowadays we should minimize our CC range as much as we can. Rake is too high and people 3bet more. Also we shouldn't defend our range on micro as wide as it says. You need to be really good postflop to make profit with most of combinations there.
 
PaxMundi

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I would like to add that I wouldn't follow blindly weazel's ranges. They are too wide for many players

That's a very good point they are tighter ranges than suggested on sites like upswing though. These RFI ranges are basically around a 22/18 Tag range which is very solid and reasonable.
 
Misaki

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That's a very good point they are tighter ranges than suggested on sites like upswing though. These RFI ranges are basically around a 22/18 Tag range which is very solid and reasonable.

I don't think many people on micro would make a profit with hands like J9s, 65s on EP or 86s on MP. If someone looks for a preflop ranges then it means he is not a good player. So if he is not a good player I think we shouldn't create the ranges which will make many hard decisions postflop.
Plus ranges for CC or 3bets are too wide and bad for current games.
Of course I can be wrong but I don't think it's a good starting point to make 3bets with many SCs . Problem is that on micro people don't like to fold to 3bets. They definitely call too wide.
So if they call then many times we have to barrels many boards with our SCs to make them profitable. In my opinion it's a bad adaption for micro stakes where we should generally be mainly focused on high cards value.
I would like to see the results from normal tag who tries to follow weazel's ranges. I'm sure he would be busto pretty soon.
 
GreenDaddy1

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I would like to add that I wouldn't follow blindly weazel's ranges. They are too wide for many players and probably many combinations wouldn't make you a profit. Because it's easy to copy ranges. Problem is that if you have leaks postflops It can destroy your winrate. Players should understand what kind of hands should we play from different position, vs different opponents and what gameplan we have on particular board. And that's essential of poker. If you won't build decent strategy postflop it will stop you on micro forever.
Nowadays we should minimize our CC range as much as we can. Rake is too high and people 3bet more. Also we shouldn't defend our range on micro as wide as it says. You need to be really good postflop to make profit with most of combinations there.


Good points for sure. I was actually opening very fractionally wider than his ranges at 5NL fast, so it has trimmed me slightly, but I'm at about 24 vpip 18 pfr and that seems ok. His 3 & 4 bet ranges are clearly not totally appropriate for 5NL fast based on the experience I've had so far (too much bluffing), so I have adapted them, after reading and watching some other stuff relating expressly to the game I'm playing, and taking on board what the guys here are saying.

Post flop is key too, as you say. In all honestly, I've adjusted what I do pre flop so many times as I've gone from a clueless player to one who breaks even right now (barely to be honest, but it is a starting point)... and I just need to lock something down now and stick with it for a long period, with the belief that it will be good enough with the amount of thought and effort I've put in. The reality is probably that nearly every one of the last 3 or 4 pre flop ranges I've been playing would have been hugely more profitable if my post flop game was better, because despite some trouble getting my 3 and 4 betting right, my opening and cc ranges have been solid for a long time. Meanwhile I was leaking money post flop.

Opening ranges are so damn simple when you put them up against something with as many complications as post flop can have. I've been spending hours this week going over post flop and refining my decision making, trying to create a process to follow every time I am post flop. I try to make my decisions with a sort of flow chart approach, going over things like:


1. Am I in position or out of position?
2. Am I the aggressor or did I call?
3. Am I against 1 villain or 2+?
4. Is the board texture wet or dry?
5. Which hand strength category do I have? (I've my hands divided into 4 strengths)
6. Which street am I on and what are the ramifications of that?

These all relatively easy to quantify, and an easy thought exercise to get to a point of what the best action is based on all of the answers. Even easier of course away from the table with time to think. But we know that is still not all, and I am also trying to get better at factoring in:


7. Villain ranges and how they've connected with the board
8. The range I am representing
9. Sometimes also the board itself in isolation - can be a nightmare getting action on scare boards at 5NL, regardless of ranges, when many players aren't thinking of my range or their own range
10. Opponent tendencies. I colour code based on obvious tells and add notes, and then target/avoid.

In real time you have to juggle all this stuff, and the grey areas in between, that is where the skill and experience comes in I suppose. I like to think once you have a reasonable strategy and the mental toughness sorted, it is largely down to muscle memory and pattern recognition, given enough time at the tables and analysis of spots (and inevitable mistakes).


While I'm wound up and have an audience, can I just say how hard it is extracting profit from 5NL fast nits with ridiculously tight ranges who fold on every single flop (or the turn to delay cbet!) that looks even slightly threatening if they don't have the nuts! :damnmate: Definitely an exercise in patience navigating those types and waiting for the fish to donate with something awful, or calling down too loose. Am winning 2.3/100bb since I started up again, but 10,700 is a small sample, so time will tell. I think improvements post flop should get me potentially to double that, as I know that is where I'm making some bad decisions, not shutting down soon enough mostly, and occasionally punting off a stack after digging myself into a hole.
 
Alucard

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AKQ

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If you had hand tracking software You could see what exactly his 3 bet range is.
I'm just going to be blunt because everyone else has so many great answers and reasoning explained
#1 calling with aq preflop was bad #various reasons 5 bet range

"FLOP Js 5c TsSB c bets $2.90. Hero calls. Pot now $11.91
[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]
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I would check raise here. You obviously thought he had a low pair or k9 or something ridiculous , so follow through with the plan.
[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]
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[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]Lots of different ways to play the hand against tight or maniac players
[/FONT]
 
PaxMundi

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How would you know you are leaking post flop or making mistakes at all by playing at party poker?
If you are looking to improve play on a site that has hud support & where you can analyse your game through a tracker.
I'd recommened ipoker right now betfair specifically since they have good rakeback deals.

also join this thread
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/polished-poker-vol-i-study-group-227214//

Ye 35% on bet fair is very good if you sign with an affiliate to get the boost.Do you know how the rake compares to say poker stars or partpoker though ? One other thng with party poker the mygame App tool beta version has just been released to review your game.Im not sure how good it is at the minute but it looks usefull to have on a hudless site.
 
Alucard

Alucard

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Ye 35% on bet fair is very good if you sign with an affiliate to get the boost.Do you know how the rake compares to say poker stars or partpoker though ? One other thng with party poker the mygame app tool beta version has just been released to review your game.Im not sure how good it is at the minute but it looks usefull to have on a hudless site.


ps rake is crap.
party rake is also not that great at the beggining cause you want to hit rake tiers for higher rakeback %.
betfair is pretty good cause there are even rake races running if you can do volume. + you get 35% vip from the start with the correct affiliate.
I very much dislike partypoker cash after they banned huds & hhs. no point in playing those games not that I put that much volume there recently though.
MPN & unibet might be better options if you are looking for hudless games
 
PaxMundi

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ps rake is crap.
party rake is also not that great at the beggining cause you want to hit rake tiers for higher rakeback %.
betfair is pretty good cause there are even rake races running if you can do volume. + you get 35% vip from the start with the correct affiliate.
I very much dislike partypoker cash after they banned huds & hhs. no point in playing those games.

I like hudless games tbh, and if your getting charged a lot less rake on partypoker doesn't it make up for less rakeback ?
 
Alucard

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I like hudless games tbh, and if your getting charged a lot less rake on partypoker doesn't it make up for less rakeback ?


I think it depends from player to player. I like rakeback because you get paid no matter you run good or not. So I look for good rakeback deals +softer games
 
PaxMundi

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I think it depends from player to player. I like rakeback because you get paid no matter you run good or not. So I look for good rakeback deals +softer games


Ye ive only recently started trying a few new sites betfair has previously been my site of choice.I wish ipoker had a larger player pool becaue it can be hard to get games going at certain times.
 
PaxMundi

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I think it depends from player to player. I like rakeback because you get paid no matter you run good or not. So I look for good rakeback deals +softer games


Ye ive only recently started trying a few new sites betfair has previously been my site of choice.I wish ipoker had a larger player pool becaue it can be hard to get games going at certain times.You would think when the top sites have binned rakeback people would flock to ipoker for the 45% on offer including the rakeraces.
 
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Honestly I dont think I ever 4 bet AQoff against a sb 3 bet here. You just dont see enough value against most players 3 bet range unless you are SURE hes 3 betting light to steal alot. AQoff plays HORRIBLE against a standard sb 3 bet range.

If I was going to 4 bet here, I'm only doing so when I know the sb sees that I'm opening alot from late and im betting to show incredible strength. The 2.5x 5 bet does nothing imo. It invites a call. You want to be putting much more pressure on him if you are going to 5 bet. At least 3.5 to 4x. Aiming to represent kk aa maybe ak. Then hes more liable to slow down on the flop with jj qq and ak, giving you a shot to power him out or make it there.

Polarize his range with the 5 bet if you are gonna put it in. If hes 6 bet jamming that's a snap fold. If he calls and checks it's a Cbet fold to C/R. If he calls and donk bets it's a call to fill GS only because of the implied odds.

But it's really player dependent here. Having no reads means you have no reason to believe hes NOT beating aq preflop when hes 3 betting from sb.

I probably just flat his 3 bet more often considering the size of the game. Your typical opponent is likely not thinking on a super deep level and probably isnt making a move there. And if they are, well, good for them.

AQoff is a dangerous hand to be playing fast against such inexperienced players. They are very unlikely to ever fold when putting in a 3 bet oop. Or ever for that matter. AQoff is just too vulnerable to play fast. Way too many spots like this where you have no clue where you are.

Imo anyway
 
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