$5 NLHE 6-max: 2nd nut flush facing 400bb full timebank 3bet allin on turn

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/16611447_B0FB0E9F54

couldn't get the hh because i'd closed stars before i posted this, but i put it on boom. so i accept that some answers will be biased towards the outcome.

i wouldn't ever usually fold in this spot at 5nl, however my opponent is definitely a reg, sharkscope has him as a winning player. villain also uses his entire 2minute timebank before clicking allin.

what are everyone elses experience with villains, or even yourself using the entire timebank before making a bet? i personally have used it for both bluffs and the nuts..

##sorry should note obviously the effective bet is 300bb not 400bb as i'm the 'shortie'

ty in advance

DONT FOLD GET IT IN!!!! we want the money in, He could be doing this with all his flushes thinking he's good, has a set perhaps? AK with his K being a spade.

Anyway if you think your never ever good here fold... but we are just infront too much of the time to not call.

Generally I've got rid of these hands out my game lately but I use to play them a while ago, but the advice i'd give is just fold pre.

i normally 3bet this pre and have no idea why i flatted.

i just figure that people who are capable of running up a 4-500bb stack at micros just don't bluff when facing the strength i showed on the turn.

and the damn timebank thīng, wtf

i suppose it didnt help that i'd just been playing plo where this is also a toughspot, but either way wtff

Hmmm... Really close spot. He's shoving all his flushes here. I don't think there is much merit in a 3bet with this particular hand. Why inflate the pot with such low equity preflop? Unless you want to steal the pot, but against large stacks you usually want to have a strong hand or fold IP. Anyway, let's analyze the hand.

Preflop: No problem with a call here, a fold is also acceptable, again I disagree with the 3Bet, I feel it is the worst of your 3 options, again not terrible though, just not optimal.

Flop: Easy call. Take note about half pot bet sizing. Our opponent is likely to be drawing, giving himself 3:1 odds if called by one, 4:1 by 2, 5:1 by 3. He is giving himself good odds to hit.

Turn: I specifically dislike your line. If you take note of the IO on the turn, he is likely weak and protecting his hand, as he donk bets. He also has some flush potential, likely not and if so you're crushing his flush range. However why I dislike your line here is because the Reg elects to flat, sandwiching himself, which is likely a strong play. If you decidee to 2Bet here you have to call a shove. It isn't wrong to call here either. But the sizing of your 2Bet is very hefty, polarizing your range, I dont understand why you'd fold to a shove if you decide to 2Bet. Keep in mind, you're in position so our villain is shoving any flush, there is just no other way he can play this hand. He can't escape.

His range strictly consists of flushes, no sets.

You're ahead of a large percent of his flushes, and even if it was a flip, you were given strong odds regardless. If you weren't confident playing that deep, you should have flatted the turn and taken the value on the river. You must make your mind before you 2Bet if you are willing to muck this hand at all. Indecisiveness was the problem here. Of course it's really easy to comment on this hand looking back on it, but it's hard to think that fluently in the heat of the moment.

when i 2bet i was excited to get it in, but the way I had planned the hand out was to raise the turn to build the pot for big river action, getting value with my raise on the turn from AxKs which would draw and give me thin or no value on the river when they miss, and worse made flushes that might opt to flat thinking they're trapping me, which might lead river..... as you can see my plan involved getting to the river.. which by raising i gave myself no guarantees of...... but it was the use of his full timebank, that made me then use mine and think it over.

my thoughts while in the tank were, mainly around him flatting on the turn, which as you point out is extremely strong. i thought that the 3bet polarised him to either KXs or A with Ks. with it being the nuts more often due to the lack of sophisticated semi bluffjams at this level.

also being on the button i think that his perception of my range would consist of more low flushes.?

you also rightly pointed out my weakness playing deep effective stacks, and this is a spot where i frequently either bust stacks or make sigh folds.

Its not close u shove ... king flush beats u and u beat everything else.

IMO villain almost always shows us the nuts here. Super big overshoves are almost never a balanced range, especially at lower stakes. It'll be the nuts praying a smaller flush calls, or air. Small stakes players don't generally calculate FE to pull big bluffs though, they're skewed toward value.

easy call. Does he really jam a K high flush in that spot? Looks like he's trying to kill the hand there and then.

I just can't agree with that thought process. The only hands you're getting value off of is a few 2 pairs, sets and A(Ks). You can neglect almost all AKs' here because of his weak 2Bet size on the flop. A set is possible but again not very likely at all. These hands are still getting odds to call your 2Bet +EV. If he does have A(Ks), you are never getting action on the river unless he hits. I feel like you played his hand too circumstantially based.

A strong argument for a fold is what does he flat that he shoves to aggression? If KsXs was in the range you put him on here, I think flatting would be best. There's more value to get against your opposition on the river. Does he flat here with a flush less than the nuts? You'd have to know him better to figure that one out, it's very likely he traps any flush here.

As far as ranges goes, his is polarized, but he never has air here, only flushes and maybe a gambling set but it's negligible. I'd put him on [KJs,K10s,K9s,J10s,J9s,109s,J8s,89s,56s].

Given that range, we're getting 2:1 to call before pot odds, we must. Even eliminating the bottom third of his range, we still get very good odds.

Think of this hand from the villains perspective. 50% of the time he flats your turn raise with the nut flush. That eliminates the possibility of him having the nuts by an even greater amount. But if you were one to have a J high flush or 10 high flush in that spot, you have to make your decision on the 2Bet to shove or fold. Given fold equity it's almost always a shove for me here with The J high flush and a tight spot with the 10 high flush OOP. Your over sized raise on the turn polarizes your range. Had you made it more disable say $2.88 or so, the villain wouldn't likely steal with a 10high flush and would likely 3bet the nut flush as oppose to outright shoving. Given this size it makes things closer, but he's shoving all his flushes here, and for that reason it's a must shove.

Think about it, if you had J10s here would you trap the small stack? Yes.
What would you do if you were 2Bet from the villain? Shove/Fold and likely shove due to all the dead money in the pot. You don't want the spade to run out on the river and devalue your hand. You have to shove this spot and likely be ahead. Your range in his eyes consist of some slow played sets. He's shoving any made flush here.

completely understand that mathematically this is a call, and at 25Nl or hgher, i would snapcall.

i just don't see the non nuts here often enough at 5NL

in addition, nobody has commented on the fact he used his full timebank before making the move, this is an important part of the decision, as it makes it more read based than math.

wildice13 said:

completely understand that mathematically this is a call, and at 25Nl or hgher, i would snapcall.

i just don't see the non nuts here often enough at 5NL

in addition, nobody has commented on the fact he used his full timebank before making the move, this is an important part of the decision, as it makes it more read based than math.

Click to expand...

How does him using the full time bank lead to you thinking he's nutted here? If anything this is creating more merit in a call here.