400nl full-ring, guess my hand!

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GAME #1185100623: Texas Hold'em NL $2.00/$4.00 2008-09-26 20:03:07
Table Kwango (No DP)
Seat 1: myiqishigh ($406.00 in chips)
Seat 3: sexesymbole ($1,059.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 4: KeiRstyle ($474.20 in chips)
Seat 5: ThatsWhatHappens ($513.38 in chips)
Seat 6: MissTofu ($400.00 in chips)
Seat 7: NatNat77 ($123.00 in chips)
Seat 8: smallfish7 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 10: SipRocketBoy ($80.00 in chips)
KeiRstyle: Post SB $2.00
ThatsWhatHappens: Post BB $4.00
myiqishigh: Post BB $6.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThatsWhatHappens [?????]
zhel32: Sitout
MissTofu: Fold
NatNat77: Fold
smallfish7: Fold
SipRocketBoy: Fold
myiqishigh: Check
sexesymbole: Fold
KeiRstyle: Raise (NF) $20.00
ThatsWhatHappens: Call $16.00
myiqishigh: Fold
*** FLOP *** [2s 6c 7s]
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $15.00
KeiRstyle: Call $15.00
*** TURN *** [As]
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $55.00
KeiRstyle: Call $55.00
*** RIVER *** [5c]
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $155.00



Villain is a very solid reg who plays up to 600nl. No stats, as I have no HUD, but I would estimate he plays around 16/14/3. My table image is very solid, aggressive. Have shown a couple busted hands, have also shown down winners.
 
KerouacsDog

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KQ of spades, or Ace something, like a AK/AQ or something.
 
c9h13no3

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Your range is pretty wide for the following reasons:

1) SB could be isolating the poster with a wide range. You know this, you have position, so you can call with a pretty wide range.

2) The turn & river cards are pretty good cards to bluff, since draws hit with both of those cards.

The one that narrows your range is that you didn't 3-bet pre. So you're probably not holding an implied odds hand like 22-77, and you're certainly not holding a monster. Flop bet kinda looks like you're trying to induce, but meht, hard to read into betsizing.

So lets go ahead and say your range by the river is like flushes (KJs, QTs, QJs, ect.), 67, 45, A7, A6 and maybe some hands you're trying to get thin value from like AJ. I'd prolly expect to see some air in there as well, since when TAG's are check/calling you down, you know they're holding some ratty crap.
 
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The one that narrows your range is that you didn't 3-bet pre. So you're probably not holding an implied odds hand like 22-77, and you're certainly not holding a monster.

Wait, why?
 
c9h13no3

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Wait, why?
Since he's gonna be isolating a poster light, we don't exactly have a bucket of implied odds, and we're probably better off 3-betting those implied odds hands. And if you're a decent reg, you're 3-betting this guy a lot, so not 3-betting with JJ+, AQ+ would probably be pretty bad as far as getting value from your hand/playing overpairs in non-3bet pots, ect.

Maybe you'd just call with aces to try and let the fish in the pot, but it seems pretty far fetched to me.

EDIT - Nvm, this is full ring. So you may not be a 3-betting machine like when I play 6-max :p. I suppose calling with small pairs is okay at this point, but meh, I'd still probably 3-bet them.
 
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Since he's gonna be isolating a poster light, we don't exactly have a bucket of implied odds, and we're probably better off 3-betting those implied odds hands. And if you're a decent reg, you're 3-betting this guy a lot, so not 3-betting with JJ+, AQ+ would probably be pretty bad as far as getting value from your hand/playing overpairs in non-3bet pots, ect.

Maybe you'd just call with aces to try and let the fish in the pot, but it seems pretty far fetched to me.

EDIT - Nvm, this is full ring. So you may not be a 3-betting machine like when I play 6-max :p. I suppose calling with small pairs is okay at this point, but meh, I'd still probably 3-bet them.

You think I should 3-bet a 5x raise from the SB from the BB with 22-77? I understand 3-betting, say, QQ+, AK, AQ, but definitely not 22-77. I honestly don't think he's raising light there, considering I'm right behind him (and he knows that I'm good), and he's in the worst position in the game.

Generally, 3-betting hands that are easily crushed is bad at full ring, FWIW (Those hands include 22-88, AT-type hands, and random broadways (besides AK, AQ, obviously.), even in position.


EDIT: That being said, if you're up against terrible players who will call 90% of your 3-bets and will play fit or fold postflop, you can 3bet pretty much anything you want, in position, but I'm referring more to spots against good, thinking players.
 
blankoblanco

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is this a standard sized raise for him or what?
 
c9h13no3

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EDIT: That being said, if you're up against terrible players who will call 90% of your 3-bets and will play fit or fold postflop, you can 3bet pretty much anything you want, in position, but I'm referring more to spots against good, thinking players.
Um, wat?

If you're up against players who call your 3-bets more, you should 3-bet a more balanced range. If you're up against (good) players who fold more, you should 3-bet a polarized range. Hence why you 3-bet 33... because often you'll get folds, and when you don't, you'll flop a set & have a fit, get shoved on pre, or have easy decisions postflop.

But you know that...

And I don't give the 5xBB raise any credit, since he's just increasing his raise size because of the dead money in the pot. A potsized raise is 4.0xbb's.
 
blankoblanco

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c9, you missed the postflop part which is the key to what he said
 
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Um, wat?

If you're up against players who call your 3-bets more, you should 3-bet a more balanced range. If you're up against (good) players who fold more, you should 3-bet a polarized range.

I thought that was stupid obvious...

What I am saying is that, if you are faced with someone who will call almost all of your 3-bets and play fit or fold postflop, you can 3-bet them with any range and c-bet (almost) any flop and you'll be easily +EV. Your own range pretty much doesn't matter in that spot, because you can win so many pots without SD. (Even if you fold to all of their 4-bets and flop c/r's if you don't have a hand, it's still +EV.)

Against good players, I will tend to mix up my 3-bet and cold-calling range enough to make it unimportant in this discussion.


Combuboom, yeah, 4x + 1 for every limper.
 
blankoblanco

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Generally, 3-betting hands that are easily crushed is bad at full ring, FWIW (Those hands include 22-88, AT-type hands, and random broadways (besides AK, AQ, obviously.), even in position.

btw, i totally disagree? in this spot not 3betting is okay since you're in position and can assess the situation much better postflop. but if the button raises and you're in the BB with 33, flatting is..like.. pretty bad the vast majority of the time, and using hands like those to 3bet is painfully standard. you have like no implied odds and you're OOP
 
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btw, i totally disagree? in this spot not 3betting is okay since you're in position and can assess the situation much better postflop. but if the button raises and you're in the BB with 33, flatting is usually pretty bad, and using hands like those to 3bet is like painfully standard. you have like no implied odds and you're OOP

Erm. In my head, I meant to type in position. I generally fold 33 in the BB to almost any raise, including button, unless I'm convinced he steals from button a lot. Unfortunately, I've gotten used to this new site, where only the good players have an ATS higher than like 25%.
 
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To extrapolate a little more, I think folding 22-55 in the BB stems from the HU ring I used to play, where I was told not to play hands that are really tough to play postflop from BB. It might actually be bad to fold 22-55 in the BB against one raise (unless it's from SB, obviously), but I don't think I lose too much value, even at full-ring where everyone is bad at poker.
 
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btw, i totally disagree? in this spot not 3betting is okay since you're in position and can assess the situation much better postflop. but if the button raises and you're in the BB with 33, flatting is..like.. pretty bad the vast majority of the time, and using hands like those to 3bet is painfully standard. you have like no implied odds and you're OOP

Sure you have no implied odds and are oop but a hand like 22 or 33 plays HORRIBLE in a 3 bet pot oop. I wouldn't be 3 betting 33 in the BB vs almost any opening range. Flatting with 33 in the bb vs button open is bad but 3 betting isn't much better because you are pretty much 100% turning your hand into a bluff as you rarely have any sort of serious showdown value if you see a flop, except on the odd flop texture and the very occasional time you flop a set. It is extremely hard to do anything about somebody floating you or making a move because your hand just looks so terrible on most boards and it isn't like you can ever pick up some sort of draw with which to semi bluff (crai a turn float etc). Small pps should be a pretty easy fold vs most steals, unless somebody is getting a little out of line but you can 3 bet with alot of hands in that situation.

It isn't like you are 3 betting with 33 trying to see a showdown with your unimproved pair...so you are much better off doing it with a hand that might actually have some postflop value more than 1/8 times.
 
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I completely fail to see how 3 betting 22-66 sort of hands from the bb vs a button steal is any sort of +EV play in the hands that reach showdown. If villain has a good enough hand to pay you off when you hit a set, then you are just spewing money the other 7 or so times that you bet into villain and he doesn't fold his better hand, and if villain never has a good enough hand to pay you off then you obviously aren't reaching showdown because villain is folding (or you are playing vs a fish that lets you check the pot down when he has no SD value). 22/33 etc are essentially equivalent to A high in this situation and it certainly isn't a hand you want to try to be bluff catching with oop. So if this being a +EV play is based upon NSD winnings, then it isn't your actual hand that matters and you might as well do this with 27o.
 
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GAME #1185100623: Texas Hold'em NL $2.00/$4.00 2008-09-26 20:03:07
Table Kwango (No DP)
Seat 1: myiqishigh ($406.00 in chips)
Seat 3: sexesymbole ($1,059.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 4: KeiRstyle ($474.20 in chips)
Seat 5: ThatsWhatHappens ($513.38 in chips)
Seat 6: MissTofu ($400.00 in chips)
Seat 7: NatNat77 ($123.00 in chips)
Seat 8: smallfish7 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 10: SipRocketBoy ($80.00 in chips)
KeiRstyle: Post SB $2.00
ThatsWhatHappens: Post BB $4.00
myiqishigh: Post BB $6.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThatsWhatHappens [?????]
zhel32: Sitout
MissTofu: Fold
NatNat77: Fold
smallfish7: Fold
SipRocketBoy: Fold
myiqishigh: Check
sexesymbole: Fold
KeiRstyle: Raise (NF) $20.00
ThatsWhatHappens: Call $16.00
myiqishigh: Fold
*** FLOP *** [2s 6c 7s]
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $15.00
KeiRstyle: Call $15.00
*** TURN *** A♠
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $55.00
KeiRstyle: Call $55.00
*** RIVER *** 5♣
KeiRstyle: Check
ThatsWhatHappens: Bet $155.00



Villain is a very solid reg who plays up to 600nl. No stats, as I have no HUD, but I would estimate he plays around 16/14/3. My table image is very solid, aggressive. Have shown a couple busted hands, have also shown down winners.

Back to this...

Obviously we need to go on both ranges here. You've said he's not stealing a ton (honestly I've never experienced a game like that, most decent players who are ~16/14 would have at least a ~35% ATS, although granted it'd be smaller from SB because of lack of positional advantage postflop).

Anyway, so his range is pocket pairs, high cards, and maybe some mid to upper suited connectors.

You call, hopefully that filters out QQ+/AK. It could be any pocket pair or suited connector, but less likely to be a low SC just because his 5x raise brings the implied odds down a bit.

Low flop, he check-calls, you bet. He is a good player, so he's probably not doing this with an overpair. He would probably cbet a flush draw, OESD, and even several hands with just 2 overs. You bet, after his check that doesn't do much to filter your range down. He calls, this tells us a lot. With this drawy of a board, you'd expect a set/2-pair/OESFD/other monsters to C/R. He doesn't, he calls. So we're looking at maybe an overpair, maybe an underpair figuring your range for a lot of draws/overs. Top pair would be a decent part but you said he doesn't steal that wide. For the same reason he would call with a low pocket or something, a hand like AK actually makes a lot of sense here, and makes more sense later in the hand.

Turn comes and the A hits, as well as completes the flush draw. He check-calls again. This is where his range seems to narrow a bit. I don't see a made flush check-calling here, I'd assume it would C/R if not bet out. If it did C/C I would expect it to lead river so as not to give you a cheap showdown with a 1-pair hand. This is also a great card for you to fire at with like an underpair, just because a flush draw seems to have been a good part of your range. You could also have a marginal A, but I guess I'd think that was less likely (as I don't think it's likely you'd flat AT/AJ from the BB, you'd probably 3-bet AK and maybe even AQ). River is a relative blank, although it fills up 89 for a straight, which really isn't in either of your ranges at this point (unless you already hit the flush, in which case it's irrelevant). He checks again, which again takes the made flush pretty much out of his range. Because of this you could be firing a wide range here, but this also means you would be firing sets/2-pair because you're not afraid of the flush. So imo your range is pretty wide while his is pretty narrow. I'd put him on AJ+/78/88-JJ with the 88-JJ having an extremely low weight, but a definite possibility. Because of this you may be firing your entire range, but because you know he's a good player and he'd know this and also because you have shown down bluffs, you're more likely to have a hand here.

So like I said, I think your range is wide here, but I'd say sets are definitely in your range, I don't know if he's folding AK so I think you would have checked behind an overpair and not turned it into a bluff. You could have hit a flush. Basically like I said it could go higher with multi-level thinking but it seems as if you have an extremely strong range here which consists of sets/2-pair/flushes, but if you think he thinks this you could do this with hands like pocket pairs turned into bluffs as well.

That's my take on it anyway.
 
blankoblanco

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Sure you have no implied odds and are oop but a hand like 22 or 33 plays HORRIBLE in a 3 bet pot oop. I wouldn't be 3 betting 33 in the BB vs almost any opening range. Flatting with 33 in the bb vs button open is bad but 3 betting isn't much better because you are pretty much 100% turning your hand into a bluff as you rarely have any sort of serious showdown value if you see a flop, except on the odd flop texture and the very occasional time you flop a set. It is extremely hard to do anything about somebody floating you or making a move because your hand just looks so terrible on most boards and it isn't like you can ever pick up some sort of draw with which to semi bluff (crai a turn float etc). Small pps should be a pretty easy fold vs most steals, unless somebody is getting a little out of line but you can 3 bet with alot of hands in that situation.

It isn't like you are 3 betting with 33 trying to see a showdown with your unimproved pair...so you are much better off doing it with a hand that might actually have some postflop value more than 1/8 times.

of course you're turning your hand into a bluff. most of the value in it is that you you'll take the pot down either preflop or postflop with a bet very often, and when they have a stronger hand that won't fold, you'll sometimes hit your set and they'll stack off. it's pretty similar theory to 3betting suited connectors and stuff, except the fact that you'll connect with the board with draws and stuff less often is made up for by the fact that it will become a made hand (a set) much more. when 3betting light, the goal is not to reach showdown a ton. and quite obviously there's more value to doing it with hands that make monsters 12% of the time but that you can't profitably flat than with 27o so that's a pretty silly thing to say

i'm not saying you have to 3bet with small pairs every time, i'm saying they're a hand to use in your 3betting range, usually vs. someone you think is raising a wide range (which is why i used a button raise as an example). this is pretty standard, i don't know why you're acting like it's so foreign
 
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Hands like 22-55 and small s/cs vs co/button steal attemps have useless implied odds vs a wide opening range and they play terrible oop. That said, i donj't have a problem 3 betting steals with T4o and other such garbage depending on the timing (so in that case i'd be 3 betting with 22-55 and small s/cs) when i know my value is going to be from NSD pots. So i don't have an argument with 3 betting these hands (obviously it is WAY better than 3 betting T4o) but i have a problem when ppl say you should be 3 betting these hands. So i don't really disagree with you, but whatever i responded to in the first place was discussing how you should always be 3 betting smaller pairs (at least that is what i remember interpretting it as).

Not all that many ppl would advocate 3 betting smaller suited connectors vs a steal either because they really don't play well oop. I don't get what you think is so standard about 3 betting from the blinds with smaller s/cs and small pps...it has never made sense EV-wise to me (coz i've heard plenty of ppl say they always 3 bet with any pair in 6 max from the blinds or what have you) and i've never seen the pros at stoxpoker etc say you should be 3 betting or calling with tiny pps vs steals.

and when they have a stronger hand that won't fold, you'll sometimes hit your set and they'll stack off. it's pretty similar theory to 3betting suited connectors and stuff, except the fact that you'll connect with the board with draws and stuff less often is made up for by the fact that it will become a made hand (a set) much more

But this is just the thing. If you are up against a strong hand, the times you get paid off for hitting your set is absolutely nothing compared to the money you blast off by 3 betting and cbetting the flop. Granted, some of this is offset by the fact that you are often winning money in NSD pots but nevertheless 22/33 etc have no showdown value unless you hit your set, unlike a hand like KQ or something which actually has the potential to have showdown value fairly often and actually get called by worse hands. Maybe vs terrible players it could work, but what decent poker player is flatting from the button then folding every time unimproved? You get into big trouble when decent players start to float you, because you either have to invest alot in a bluff by firing 2 streets when you might very well be drawing dead or you what? Cbet flop then give up? That is ridiculously exploitable. But what are you going to do being oop with a tiny pp on a board that oftentimes might very well have hit villain's range and you can't semi bluff or anything with no draws possible. And if they are playing fit or fold on the flop, then you should be 3 betting them everytime they steal with atc, because the value comes from them calling too much preflop then folding too much on teh flop, not from your hand.

I really really don't think that the value you get from showdown when you are paid off when you hit your set has any chance of erasing the money you lose when you either lose at showdown or are forced to fold because your hand is too weak to continue. And if this isn't the case, then specifically using 33 etc to 3B is not +EV...if the move as a whole is +EV it is because it is immediately profitable to 3bet then fire a cbet vs a given villain.
 
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blankoblanco

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so basically when you 3bet from the blinds vs. a good player, your hand range is polarized to.. what exactly? because it sounds like you'd be incredibly exploitable vs. anyone decent

edit: okay, you said you'll 3bet junk when you know the timing is right.. that's fine. but sometimes the timing will be "less right" but still be a relatively good situation, and the fact that you have a hand that makes a monster 12% of the time instead of junk with very little potential can be what sways your decision.. because whether or not we want to go to showdown, sometimes the other guy is going to make a hand
 
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Well i edited it, so it should be clearer what i have a problem with.

Maybe vs terrible players it could work, but what decent poker player is flatting from the button then folding every time unimproved? You get into big trouble when decent players start to float you, because you either have to invest alot in a bluff by firing 2 streets when you might very well be drawing dead or you what? Cbet flop then give up? That is ridiculously exploitable. But what are you going to do being oop with a tiny pp on a board that oftentimes might very well have hit villain's range and you can't semi bluff or anything with no draws possible. And if they are playing fit or fold on the flop, then you should be 3 betting them everytime they steal with atc, because the value comes from them calling too much preflop then folding too much on teh flop, not from your hand.

And again, ofcourse i sometimes will 3 bet with these hands. That was never my problem. My problem is with people who say "oh why didn't you 3 B 44 vs the blind steal". What i am saying is 10000000x less exploitable than that kind of logic (3 betting with any pp everytime would get you absolutely raped by a half decent player).

The fact is that by 3 betting with a small pp you have no further discourse of action other than "3B, fire flop, hope he folds, if not hope like hell i hit/have a set". You are just asking to be outplayed.
 
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feitr

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edit: okay, you said you'll 3bet junk when you know the timing is right.. that's fine. but sometimes the timing will be "less right" but still be a relatively good situation, and the fact that you have a hand that makes a monster 12% of the time instead of junk with very little potential can be what sways your decision.. because whether or not we want to go to showdown, sometimes the other guy is going to make a hand

i don't disagree with this at all. The only thing i've ever disagreed with was the whole "you should always 3B pps vs btn steals" attitude. Obviously 3 betting with 33 is much better than 3 betting with T4o...

I am incredibly interested to hear your logic about 3B with a hand like 33 being a + EV if practiced constantly (if you do believe that). How do you think that the fact we will win a stack on the occasion we hit a set will be more profitable than the times we run into a hand and have to fold, because our hand is so weak, or see showdown with an unimproved hand, not to mention all the times we are going to get bluffed out of the pot because we are oop and our hand is so weak with no semi-bluffing capability/decent number of outs to improve?
 
blankoblanco

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i didn't mean to make it sound like you're supposed to auto 3bet because you have a pair. just that in that situation flatcalling is rarely even an option but that imo 3betting is a solid option under the right circumstances. i generally have a pretty solid image so it's something i can mix in. the fact that some of the times they'll make a hand they won't want to fold postflop will coincide with the times we hit sets and we win a whole stack adds substantially to our EV than if we were just 3betting with uno cards or something on the basis that we think they'll fold often enough

anyway, sry guys, back to your regularly scheduled programming
 
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feitr

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yea got a little sidetracked i guess...i don't even disagree with what you are saying lol, just with the initial comment (or at least how i interpreted it) :)

But you are right in the sense that flat calling is not an option, and so oftentimes (depending on villain and timing) the most +EV play will be to 3B the small pp (rather than fold), however, that is not (imo) because of the value of 3 betting a small pp oop. There are definitely much better hands with which ppl should be advocating you "always should 3B" from the blinds vs co/btn steal. And since you can only 3B a stealer so much, it is best to use as many of these hands as possible rather than making small pps a large portion of your 3 betting range, which is a very exploitable play. Anyways yea i'll stay out of this thread from now on lol.
 
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