$400 NLHE Full Ring: Set on flop, crazy action

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postflopper

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$400 NL HE Full Ring: Set on flop, crazy action

live game at the casino, been at the table for about 2hrs. been relatively tight and semi-aggressive, raising in position and c-betting about 75% of the time.

7-handed action for this hand as 2 were sittin out.

Hero(BB):$450
MP1:$165 (tight/passive, no real reads on him as he's only been at the table for bout 2 orbits)
MP2:$550 (LAG, limps in with any 2, sees almost 80% of flops. was playin at the table before me)
Button:$325 (super tight. havent really seen him play any hands, let alone raise)

MP1 and MP2 limped in preflop. button took a look at his cards and immediately reached for his chips. raised to $20. initial read was that he was really strong, AA or KK. looked down at 5 5, called the additional $16. MP1 and MP2 called as well.

Flop: 3 5 6, 2 spades.
i had checked dark, and MP1 and MP2 checked behind. button bet $65. i raised to $155. MP1 folded, and MP2 announced all-in. button took about 10 seconds, and shoved.
Hero:??
 
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Aaronftw

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With all the money out there, im right behind them, im more worried about MP2, then i am button. If your right and hes holding QQ+ then your going to get paid off, MP2 might have limped with two pair, top pair + straight draw say 67.. or any kind of flush. If hes agro enough ive seen these donks push all in on a flop of that with a J high flush draw. Get your money in, hope he dosent have a straight and if he does you have quite a few outs.
 
ChuckTs

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You're afraid of 66, 74, and 42. Get your money in.

And stop checking in the dark. This is a prime spot for a lead and you messed it up by doing so.
 
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postflopper

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if i had bet out, MP2 woulda raised, and button woulda still shoved, im pretty sure, with his line. where does that leave me? all in or fold. what would your read be on MP2 be then?
 
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You said hes a maniac see's flops with any cards, so id say, two pair, top pair + straight draw or the straight is what he holds. Most we beat, or we have outs im fist pumping my cash in.
 
ChuckTs

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if i had bet out, MP2 woulda raised, and button woulda still shoved, im pretty sure, with his line. where does that leave me? all in or fold. what would your read be on MP2 be then?

...that leaves you with a set and a big pot. You WANT money in the middle.

If the guy in the middle has something like a pair+draw or a flush draw or whatever, you don't want the flop to check through because you miss value.

I don't have a 'read' on MP2, but I'd assume he has a range made up of flush draws, other combo draws, overpairs, two pairs, then finally the straights and sets. You have the majority of that range CRUSHED, and when you're behind you're either against top set (drawing near dead but still have outs), or against a straight, against which you still have a ton of outs to improve.

Basically you're not afraid of being beat here. You have a set, a wet board where lots of draws will stack, and you want to find the way to get the most money in the middle as possible.
 
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Call...very quickly, this isn't even close. We're so ahead of their ranges it isn't funny (button has overpairs a ton and MP2 has overs and FD pair and SD, smaller overpair etc etc a ton

As an additional fact do not check dark in this spot. We should be leading out flopped sets in this spot a very high percentage of the time bc of our poor relative position (position in relation to the pre flop raiser). We check as does everyone else to him (most people check tot he raiser) he bets and w eraise, thus squeezing out all of the other opponents. In other cases we lead, squeeze IN an opponent or two and PFR raises it, now we have an inflated pot, dead money squeezed in etc etc and we can decide how to proceed. Had my relative position been better (one to right of the PFR) I would check to let him bet and trap the dead money in before raising.
 
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postflopper

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hmm. thanks for the explaination on why leading out woulda been a better choice. i understand your points.
 
ukaliks

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if i had bet out, MP2 woulda raised, and button woulda still shoved, im pretty sure, with his line. where does that leave me? all in or fold. what would your read be on MP2 be then?

By checking u've induced weakness and let the orginal raiser to make a c-bet. I'd say button has AA,KK,QQ possibly AK (if he's been gettin bored and can't let go of his hand).
I'd say MP2 has 2pair or a flush draw. So jam ur money in n hope 4 the best that ur set holds up. U can't b folding sets spesh when u have one person (button) allmost card dead.
 
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cAPSLOCK

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I am sure I will be repeating a theme here, but I got so excited reading your post I had to respond!

1. This is the DREAM situation. CALL CALL CALL INSTANLY! From your descriptions your read on buttons range is likely close. He has a big ovverpair and is dead to a set (5+:1) or miracle flush (50:1). MP1 has become relatively irrelevant because of stack size, but he folded didn't he? And MP2's range is so wide you have him crushed.

2. You are only currently beaten by 3 hands! two of those are almost the mortal nuts. Your LAGster thought about it for 10 secs. He is on a draw!!! And has done all your work for you.

3. Checking dark might be good is certain circumstances... but you gain bogus position by giving up your option to play. If you were up against only your LAG then it makes sense maybe (I mostly don't like the move), but when you flop a monster like this you want to get money in the pot. More often than is good you are giving up value. No free cards here. Drawing out should have a price.

4. CALL! :)

5. If you lost this pot calling... you lost doing the right thing, as played.
 
shootwillus

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There is no way you cant call here. Call %110 of the time. If you loose to a suck out...so be it. Get the money behind the best hand as fast as possible.
 
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postflopper

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thanks for the comments guys.

anyway for closure, MP2 showed J6 of spades, top pair and a flush draw. MP1 had kings, expectedly. board blanked out and i took it down. happy man.
 
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Aaronftw

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Called it on the nail, nice call and read of your villains
 
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Pantheon

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There's a valuable lesson about nits here - the vast majority of nits are horrible postflop players. If you're button, of course you fold to the craziness after your initial flop lead, but most nits are really bad postflop and can't shake their "wooohooo i got aces/kings!" euphoria postflop when it's extremely evident that they are beat.

Everything else has already been said. Given that button's range is just big overpairs that he can't let go of and hence his money is basically dead, there's no way we can consider anything but getting it in. If someone has 66 it's just a crazy cooler and if someone has 74 or 42 (most likely MP2 obviously given your reads) you have plenty of outs. The majority of the time you will be up against middle PPs or flush/straight/combo draws.

As an addendum, checking in the dark is almost always a bad idea and you're better off just not doing it at all ever if you thought it was a good idea here.
 
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postflopper

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alright, i'll re-evaluate checking in the dark in a raised pot the net time around. i still think checking in the dark has value though, taking into consideration the situation.
 
c9h13no3

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i still think checking in the dark has value though, taking into consideration the situation.
Why? How does the dark action increase your EV? Seeing Daniel Negraneau do it on TV is not an answer to the question.
 
vanquish

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i insta-shove and then crank dat soulja boy
 
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postflopper

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i believe it has a certain value, in that it induces more action and non-believers, with your opponents automatically thinking u have FPS when u check dark and then raise, when u actually hold something strong.

then again, it could backfire if everyone checked along when u had checked in the dark and flopped bottom 2 pair or sth. pros and cons, just like everything else in poker.

like how doyle brunson insists that u should never check-raise, but then, everyone knows the strengths in that.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Why would a dark check induce more action? Checking dark, you could possibly have flopped a big hand, but no one would know. By looking at the flop and then choosing to check, your hand range is slightly weaker since sometimes you would lead at the pot with a big hand. Additionally, even if checking dark actually did do something, it wouldn't be worth giving up the opportunity to lead at the pot in situations like this.

Only time I do anything dark is in stud 8 or better, when I have my opponent freerolled, and if I check to them on the river they will obviously check behind. In this case, betting dark doesn't give up any tells, however if I look at my river card, he might catch a tell that indicates that I have hit a draw to a straight/whatever.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i believe it has a certain value, in that it induces more action and non-believers, with your opponents automatically thinking u have FPS when u check dark and then raise, when u actually hold something strong.

then again, it could backfire if everyone checked along when u had checked in the dark and flopped bottom 2 pair or sth. pros and cons, just like everything else in poker.

like how doyle brunson insists that u should never check-raise, but then, everyone knows the strengths in that.

yea except darkcheck/raising makes ur hand look like exactly what it is because you're never doing it as a bluff
 
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cAPSLOCK

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your opponents automatically thinking u have FPS when u check dark and then raise


Those opponents. Gosh. So silly. But seriously... What is fancier than this play? And a check raise this way would scare the crap out of me more than have me worrying about your trickiness. If i call it's one of those times where I feel pretty sure I am making a mistake and regretting it when the showdown comes.
 
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