$400 NLHE Full Ring: QQ in the BB vs. OTB's open and SB reg's 3bet

$400 NL HE Full Ring: QQ in the BB vs. OTB's open and SB reg's 3bet

OTB is some unknown with a tiny sample size, playing like 12/12
SB is a winning reg with a 5.5% 3-bet, playing 15/12/3, pretty solid, thinking player, sample size: ~1k hands


edit: i've been playing close to my standard 18/15/2.25, 5.6% 3-bet, not sure how much of that villain has gathered from his HUD

poker stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (BB): $534.20 (133.6 bb)
UTG: $559.80 (140 bb)
UTG+1: $365.50 (91.4 bb)
MP1: $471 (117.8 bb)
MP2: $212.50 (53.1 bb)
MP3: $400 (100 bb)
CO: $445.70 (111.4 bb)
BTN: $503.70 (125.9 bb)
SB: $400 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with Q Q
6 folds, BTN raises to $8, SB raises to $36, Hero...

this spot kind of sucks. I'm not really sure how aggro 400NL FR plays, but I am torn between flatting and 4betting/getting it in. By flatting we are giving Button odds to call with any pair/SC correct? Playing a 3bet pot oop multiway is gonna suck pretty hard so I think i 4bet/call it off here.

honestly I have no idea whats the best move here. I realize the sb player knows the button is raising a wide range so I'm kind of thinking about flatting this personally. I don't think 4 betting here is the right play but maybe I'm wrong.

bw07507 said:

this spot kind of sucks. I'm not really sure how aggro 400NL FR plays, but I am torn between flatting and 4betting/getting it in. By flatting we are giving Button odds to call with any pair/SC correct? Playing a 3bet pot oop multiway is gonna suck pretty hard so I think i 4bet/call it off here.

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thats what I been thinking of too, because the button has a pretty close to heros stack size, so gives him the odds to call super wide, but if I'm 4 betting then I'm definitely calling it off also. I still can't decide if I like 4 betting or flatting more.

Im a moron for actualy thinking folding wouldnt be to bad?

If we flat where basicly telling SB we have JJ+(probably discount a few AA/KK since alot of them probably just geting it in prf) so he is probably only gonna give us alot of action postflop when he has that range beat,flatting also gives btn sick odds to call with basicly most of his (presumably)huge btn range.

4betting is gonna seem massivly strong and gonna put us in a spot where both villains can play perfectly against us by shoving/calling QQ+AK but we probably pick up alot of folds from both of them.

meh just a nasty spot and i have no idea what i would do :S

ok I changed my mind, I think I have too much fancy play syndrome in me lately, I would be making kind of smallish 4 bet here to like 100ish and try and get AK/AQs/JJ/TT shove over me and if they show up with AA/KK complain a little and move on .

sindri_93 said:

Im a moron for actualy thinking folding wouldnt be to bad?

If we flat where basicly telling SB we have JJ+(probably discount a few AA/KK since alot of them probably just geting it in prf) so he is probably only gonna give us alot of action postflop when he has that range beat,flatting also gives btn sick odds to call with basicly most of his (presumably)huge btn range.

4betting is gonna seem massivly strong and gonna put us in a spot where both villains can play perfectly against us by shoving/calling QQ+AK but we probably pick up alot of folds from both of them.

meh just a nasty spot and i have no idea what i would do :S

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I'm never foldling this, I'm not sure if you looked at the stacks but the button has 125bbs, which is slightly less than us and I'm sure sb realizes that btn is raising super wide especially with 12/12 stats and I also know vanq is super aggro so if he makes a smallish 4 bet here, I think either the button or sb may decide to make a move and shove and I mean if I'm the button here, I'm definitely shoving AK/QQ perhaps AQs, JJ because I know sb and bb are both aggro good thinking players, so by 4 betting small we give them room to make that move.

button raise was weak and SB might be picking up on this and just trying to re-steal. i would 4 bet to about $100 but with the intention of folding to a 5 bet. any safe flop not containing an Ace or King i shove.

button raise was weak and SB might be picking up on this and just trying to re-steal. i would 4 bet to about $100 but with the intention of folding to a 5 bet. any safe flop not containing an Ace or King i shove.

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4bet/folding, especially for such a large amount is by far the worst option you could take here

Make it $90-100, if the button shoves it's a pretty sick spot, if the small blind shoves I snap it begrudgingly.

If either player flats the 4bet it's going to be a wierd spot, i'd bet half pot regardless of flop and fold to a shove if the flop has an ace or king.

If the button continues in this hand I'd be worried, min-bet/calling 20% of stack = opposite of super double fisty pump.

Pretty sure this is a fold. Sure you have the best hand a lot here but if you cold 4-bet they both fold anything worse than KK+/AK and may even find a fold with AK unless you have a history of cold 4-bet bluffing. Meanwhile if you flat here you're going to end up in a multi-way 3-bet pot with QQ oop and there's just no way that's profitable unless you basically know exactly how the other two players will play most hands on most flops. So yeah I think this is a fold and it's not really that close. If you have history with button/SB and you know SB is squeezing light and you're squeezing light and you have reason to think he'll shove on you with hands like AQ/TT/JJ then you can just 4-bet for value and call the shove. Also his 3-bet specifically in the SB would be a good stat here if he's a reg and you have enough hands on him. Some 5% 3-bet guys will 3-bet 15% from SB and some will 3-bet 3%. There's a big difference.

relevant stat i missed:
-SB's 3-bet from SB is 12%

How small is the buttons sample?

4bet!
I think we've a ton of fold equity and QQ is comfortable enough to call a shove.
Also I'd be doing this with air in this situation a fair bit this would be a nice opportunity to balance and use our image for a nice JJ call .

If we don't have the image were turning our hand into a bluff.
With 40% equity against AK/KK+ I think its more like turning our hand into a semibluff with a shitload of fold equity.
If the alternative is folding were not really losing value by turning our hand into a bluff are we?

omg I've disagreed with Zachvac
I await having my logic took to pieces or having a man call at my door and beat me with an umbrella

Let's assume a 4bet induces a push/fold policy with 2 villains.
Now let's pull some numbers out our asses.

First instance - 70% of the time we take the 12 big blinds in the pot when our 4bet is followed by double fold.

Second instance - 15% the button shoves his KK+/AK range (125BB's deep this might not be the line villain takes)

Third instance - 15% the SB shoves his KK+/AK range.

From 10 hands played...

First instance we earn 84 BB's
Second instance we lose 37.5 BB's
Third instances we lose 30 BB's

Total +16.5 BB's

Obv this is just 1 example but you can fiddle with the numbers to suit your personal ranges here. The 4bet/fold/fold % has to be about 65% to justify 4bet/call V's the KK+/AK range.

WossaPotOddz said:

Let's assume a 4bet induces a push/fold policy with 2 villains.
Now let's pull some numbers out our asses.

First instance - 70% of the time we take the 12 big blinds in the pot when our 4bet is followed by double fold.

Second instance - 15% the button shoves his KK+/AK range (125BB's deep this might not be the line villain takes)

Third instance - 15% the SB shoves his KK+/AK range.

From 10 hands played...

First instance we earn 84 BB's
Second instance we lose 37.5 BB's
Third instances we lose 30 BB's

Total +16.5 BB's

Obv this is just 1 example but you can fiddle with the numbers to suit your personal ranges here. The 4bet/fold/fold % has to be about 65% to justify 4bet/call V's the KK+/AK range.

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you realize that their shoving range is wider than what you said? this is 400nl, both of the villains are thinking aggro players, I think they know that vanq is a thinking player also and is capable of 4 betting light which in this spot to be honest 4 betting 72 would be a good play, getting totally off topic but I seen this a while back, was playing some mtts and at the same time decided to rail johnnybax, he is a really good mtt player for those who don't know, anyways he raises from CO, Button 3 bets and SB 4 bets, some of you may think SB has AA for sure, nope both Bax and some other well known mtt pro folded and SB showed 72, probably the sickest play I have seen in an mtt, there are not many occasions where you can do this, but realizing that bax is super aggro in position which the button knows and he is 3 betting light, but when the sb 4 bets, that looks super strong, and i believe button said he folded QQ. Now that's what I call playing the player and not your cards.

this is kind of a same concept, button with a decent stack raises super wide, sb with a huge 3betting % from the sb reraises, I think we have the best hand here so often that 4 betting here is for value and if they show up with AA/KK then we just got super unlucky.

EDIT: and tbh I would 4bet here with probably any two cards if both of the villains are regs that I will play a lot of metagame purposes, if they shove and I fold, they will know that I'm capable of 4 betting light and stack off lighter vs me because they expect me to be capable of making big bluffs. Also they may start 4 betting my 3 bets lighter thinking I'm a nit.

Yeah with the missing info about him 3-betting that much from the SB I think I like a 4-bet and just call it off although I'm not sure can we 4-bet/fold if button jams on us? If button folds and SB jams I snapcall but I'm not sure about button how often does he re-pop anything less than KK+ when he minraises button (which he probably does with a huge range) then gets 3-bet and cold 4-bet? Haven't done the math to check our equity against KK+ and see if it's a call anyway when we 4-bet but I think we can't. SB's gotta jam way wider though and we snapcall the QQ and we are good a lot of the time I think and definitely have odds to call the jam which at least includes AK if not even other hands.

bob_tiger said:

you realize that their shoving range is wider than what you said?

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Yes

WossaPotOddz said:

Obv this is just 1 example but you can fiddle with the numbers to suit your personal ranges here. The 4bet/fold/fold % has to be about 65% to justify 4bet/call V's the KK+/AK range.

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That 72 hand was pretty sick, especially for a tournament 4bet

I really think 4bet/call is the best line, you're not super happy if it's the button shoving since his range is going to be much tigher than the small blind but you can't fold 3rd nutties in Button/Blind/Blind battle

I'd snap call against the button's shove. However again this decision is for the 50NL I play at were people aren't going to fold AK here.

If we raise to $150 I think we need a little better than 33% equity to call.
If we take half the combos of AK away 33% equity is what were left with (I think pokerstove implementing some sort of weighting system would be great)

Considering our opponents relativly unknown were basing our decision on the 400NL population as a whole.
Can 50% of the Tags/nits at 400NL fold AK?

At 50NL this is a definite no so I call.
400NL the standard of play will be higher. On the other hand if this move is commonly done with air AK is suddenly firmly with us again.

Deco said:

I'd snap call against the button's shove. However again this decision is for the 50NL I play at were people aren't going to fold AK here.

If we raise to $150 I think we need a little better than 33% equity to call.
If we take half the combos of AK away 33% equity is what were left with (I think pokerstove implementing some sort of weighting system would be great)

Considering our opponents relativly unknown were basing our decision on the 400NL population as a whole.
Can 50% of the Tags/nits at 400NL fold AK?

At 50NL this is a definite no so I call.
400NL the standard of play will be higher. On the other hand if this move is commonly done with air AK is suddenly firmly with us again.

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isn't this sort of circular logic? kinda like "if we 4bet to $200 we only need 25% equity, so we can call!" it's the 4bet in the first place that's the crux of the entire hand

Deco said:

(I think pokerstove implementing some sort of weighting system would be great).

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Have u tried poker razor? Similar tool excepted better and more advanced in weighting ranges(u can punch in his range and then use a slider to weigh his range to stronger or weaker hands)+ it has alot of features stove doesnt have.
Its free while in beta.

vanquish said:

isn't this sort of circular logic? kinda like "if we 4bet to $200 we only need 25% equity, so we can call!" it's the 4bet in the first place that's the crux of the entire hand

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I weren't making a suggestion that $150 is the right size (it was a guesstimate of a potsized raise) I was merely using it as an example for how little combos of AK we need.

The size of the bet would indeed alter our decision on whether we call or not.
I just didn't comment on this as I usually just tap the pot button truth be told
Being a 50NL dude I don't pull this move off often so I've never given much thought on sizing. If we made it small a fold to the button becomes more likely however I fear a 4bet with AK also becomes more likely as we represent less strength when not committing ourselves to the pot.

sindri_93 said:

Have u tried poker razor? Similar tool excepted better and more advanced in weighting ranges(u can punch in his range and then use a slider to weigh his range to stronger or weaker hands)+ it has alot of features stove doesnt have.
Its free while in beta.

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Thanks just downloaded it now.
Looks similar to stox EV but hopefully a bit simpler to use.

What are people doing with the following in the same scenario.

TT
JJ
AK
AQ

WossaPotOddz said:

What are people doing with the following in the same scenario.

TT - Fold
JJ - 4bet
AK - 4bet
AQ - Fold

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The above is not standard!
The stats below are why were doing this!

If his 3bets are never light or we don't have enough hands to deem otherwise I'm folding all but KK/AA

On the other hand If I have history for cold 4betting with the SB I will 4bet all of the hands you listed.

vanquish said:

-SB's 3-bet from SB is 12%

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if his 3bets are "never light", he's still most likely 3betting something like 99+, AK

QQ is ahead of this