$400 NLHE Full Ring: playing KK on a suited flop?

stately7

stately7

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3/3 live game, local casino.

I’m in late position with KsKd and a stack of $380. EP with a stack of approx $400 raises to $6, small for this table (standard raise is $12-$18). Villain is young LAG-ish type, new to the table but I’ve already seen loose calls / raises with him drawing and floating on a couple of boards.

I’ve been playing a fairly tight aggressive game, which he may or may not have noticed.

I raise my KsKd in the cut off to $25, he flat calls.

Flop is 2s As 7s

He bets the pot – about $60.

What’s my play?
 
Mr Sandbag

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It really depends on your read. Has he bet the pot previously? Has he won or lost those pots? How often is he betting the flop? You said he was new to the table, so if you haven't seen enough to make a read, treat him like an unknown. A pot-sized bet in this situation could be top pair or two pair who is scared of a spade on the turn. I'm inclined to believe he paired an Ace. Not many players will make such a large bet with a poor hand and a board texture like that, and your 3-bet preflop almost certainly puts a strong Ace in your range. I wouldn't be surprised if he had AxQs/AxJs/Ax10s. That being said, you have 11 outs (two Kings and any spade), but you aren't getting the pot odds to draw out and you can't necessarily expect to get paid off if another spade peels off.

All of the above is just my read of an opponent unknown to me, but I'd say fold.

I hope you post the hand result; I'm curious to see how it played out and what he had (if he showed).
 
stately7

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Thanks Mr Sandbag, yes I'll post the hand result soon, see if a few others respond first.

Yeah my read was sketchy, but I'd seen him win a pot by either turning or river-ing a straight, he was calling a flop bet that occasion rather than leading out.

My first instinct with his flop bet was that he'd paired the Ace.
 
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sryImPro

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he likely had an ace rag there :/...as you described there, he looks like a player who would bet with top pair like that...my move would be fold
 
stately7

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Yeah I'm thinking he most likely has an Ace (ace rag or even AJ-A10) … although a set of 2s or 7s is a small though unlikely possibility.

But then it occurs to me his range could easily include him semi-bluff drawing to a 5th spade with something like QsJd, or even a weird 8s7c with middle pair + medium flush draw.

I finally weigh up both these options as 50/50 each (discounting the set which was a math error, even though he didn't have a set).

Because I have the nut flush draw, I then wonder if I can push him off top pair - the Ace he hit on the flop - if that was the case. Decide if he will fold half the time when he has an ace.

If I he calls with a weaker flush draw, I'm a heavy favourite. I push all in and lose to 3s6s - a made flush on the flop.

How badly did I play this hand? Thinking I should have folded on the flop and moved on to another hand. Emotion / tilt got the better of me, as what I didn't mention was that I'd lost a pretty big pot to this player 10 mins prior when he drew without the correct odds to hit that straight when I had flopped a set of Qs!
 
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Nylan

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The best you can do is just go all in, (litle semi-bluf)
If he had an A 10 or something like that, he Will problably fold,
And if he Calls you have still almost 50%
 
stately7

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He actually thought about folding his small made flush for a while, then with a pained face exclaimed, "I can't fold this, sorry man" and called!
 
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Nylan

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and what came on turn and river?
Or did you fold?
 
Mr Sandbag

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Lol he raised preflop with 63s and then called your 3-bet? Wow...

It makes sense, though. He has a made flush and would rather not see another spade peel off. Folding the flop was probably the best move. You said yourself he's made a lot of loose calls, so I don't think it was likely you were pushing him off top pair or better. While I was unable to accurately determine his hand, I was correct in saying that he bet to avoid a spade.
 
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nmaher18

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I think all in was the right move, with the number of outs if he is holding an ace plus fold equity if you think he can find a fold some of the time,you are getting the required odds! The only problem for me is the reason you went all in!
 
stately7

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Lol he raised preflop with 63s and then called your 3-bet? Wow...

It makes sense, though. He has a made flush and would rather not see another spade peel off. Folding the flop was probably the best move. You said yourself he's made a lot of loose calls, so I don't think it was likely you were pushing him off top pair or better. While I was unable to accurately determine his hand, I was correct in saying that he bet to avoid a spade.

Pre-flop, I know! Yeah, pretty certain now the problem in my thinking was that I could push him off top pair enough of the time to make the shove profitable. And those nut flush spade outs were really tempting me.

And I did discount a made flush I must say, that and the possibility of a set were two more good % reasons to fold on the flop.

Still, I almost like my play - mostly because he jumped back in shock when I shoved, his face went to pieces, and it took him over a minute to call.

I took a few deep breaths, said good night and left the casino. Lol
 
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baudib1

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Flop play is terrible, against a thinking player you are always getting snapped by his hand. The fact that he had to tank is sillly. You have essentially 1 or 2 combos of made flushes unless you are 3-beting QJs type hands.

Call flop, fold turn if he bets big.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Flop play is terrible, against a thinking player you are always getting snapped by his hand. The fact that he had to tank is sillly. You have essentially 1 or 2 combos of made flushes unless you are 3-beting QJs type hands.

Call flop, fold turn if he bets big.

Seems pointless to call the flop and fold to a bet. He's basically looking for a King or spade to turn or he's folding, and he doesn't have the pot odds to chase it. Based on my previous read, villain is ahead and will almost certainly be betting any non-spade turn.

I do agree that the flop play was questionable. The villain is only calling with a hand that has you beat and (most likely) folding any weak pairs or draws.
 
stately7

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I'm not sure he was a thinking player, though that's the thing. But yeah I wanted to confirm this was not good flop play. Thanks too for the advice on calling flop / folding to a lge turn bet when we don't hit a spade. But gotta say I don't like the idea of throwing another $60 into the pot then folding the turn. I incorrectly read his flop bet as potentially trying to muscle me out of the hand, and thought the all-in would put an end to that with fold equity and reasonable outs.
 
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baudib1

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You can fold the flop, but raising the absolute worst thing you can do here. Let's review:

1. You have good showdown value with the nut draw.
2. You're absolutely crushed by his value range.
3. You're facing a pot-sized bet on a scary board.

So you think this is a good situation for him to be bluffing into a tight player's 3-bet range, and then you want to bet 3x the pot to get him to fold his bluffs?

I hope you see the problem with this.
 
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Henreiman

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I'm calling and shoving on the turn with no spade/paired board. Your line looks super strong, I expect him to fold all Ax except MAYBE AxQs, and even if he snaps with a set or something you still have good odds. Hell you could even get him to fold a set or baby flush if he's your typical noob reg scared of the flopped flush with KQs or similar.
 
stately7

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I think all in was the right move, with the number of outs if he is holding an ace plus fold equity if you think he can find a fold some of the time,you are getting the required odds! The only problem for me is the reason you went all in!

Which reason I went all in? There were a few. Not all of them good.
 
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micromoi

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u have a tight image u raised big so him leading to u with an ace on board must signal strenght i would fold its a full pot bet its just too much and with a blank in turn what u can do facing even a larger bet, its not profitable call here.
 
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kanselau

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your opponent raised pre in EP showing strength you 3bet showing a lot of strength and he still called .
The flop looks preety scary with an A and 3 flush cards , but your opponent is still willing to bet at this pot , this doesn't look like a bluff .
This looks like A rag (two pair ) AxJs+ , sets . And against this range villain is a %60 favourite.
Fold > call > raise/shove
 
Abedin120

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I think he is clearly has an Ace or maybe three or a kind. However I think he is better than you on the flop, but there is two kings left in the game so if you think that there is a chance for one king to be dealt than you should pay. That depends on your sense. If I am on your position I will call him and hope there will be dealt a king on the turn.
 
donkysnake

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he could have 77, i would fold the 60$ bet, even if u have outs with ur nut fllush draw, ur still way behind, even if against ace rag or a7
 
dgiharris

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The fact that V shows up here with 6s3s shows that we have very little real read on his range or competency

When we are in these spots we have to be capable of thinking through how our villain would play the hand.

Is our villain a stack off monkey that is never folding Ace rag?
Is our villain loose preflop but competent post flop?
Is our villain loose preflop and a spewmonkey bluff tard post flop?
What does our preflop raise do to our villain's range preflop and post flop?
What does villain's post flop bet say about his hand?
What does our action (call or raise) do to our villain's range and how villain continues on the next streets?

To me, a lot of advice in this thread seems like one-size-fits-all advice without taking the above questions into account.

Shoving flop here when we have $360 behind is just spewy. What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying to fold out AxQs or AxJs type hands? Are we trying to fold out sets?

When we shove for $360 we ensure that we only get called by hands that beat us.

Also, before we shove for $360 we need to know if we can get better hands to fold and truthfully the answer is going to be no way too often.

It is counter intuitive but this is a spot where we really want to try to pot control and get correct odds to draw but barring that, if V is not giving us correct odds to draw then we need to be folding.

The reason for the above is because we just don't have the fold equity when we shove and too often at this level villains will call is with pretty much 100% of their donk betting range.

When V donk bets into us on this board for a pot sized bet, he's just never folding. I expect V to be donking into us here with AxQs, AxJs, or flushes most of the time and these are hands he's never folding.

I hate having KK vs stack off monkeys and an Ace hits the board. A part of us wants to spazz out and try to rep AK and fold out the stack off monkey but it rarely works. In this ccase, its counter intuitive but this is not a spot where we want to shove over the top of a pot sized donk bet. As horrible as it sounds, correct play here is to call drawing to one street and hope V makes a mistake on turn and gives us correct odds to draw on turn or we bink a spade on turn. Barring that, if we whiff on turn and V jams us then we have fold.

Sometimes, a passive line is best. I know in general you want to be aggressive but a small % of the time a passive line is more optimal and this is one of those times. We have enough implied odds to draw to one street, so we draw to one street and hope to bink, otherwise we call flop and check/fold turn if we don't get the right price to draw to another street..
 
dgiharris

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your opponent raised pre in EP showing strength you 3bet showing a lot of strength and he still called .
The flop looks preety scary with an A and 3 flush cards , but your opponent is still willing to bet at this pot , this doesn't look like a bluff .
This looks like A rag (two pair ) AxJs+ , sets . And against this range villain is a %60 favourite.
Fold > call > raise/shove

yeah, I can get behind this as well
 
Beanfacekilla

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The fact that V shows up here with 6s3s shows that we have very little real read on his range or competency

When we are in these spots we have to be capable of thinking through how our villain would play the hand.

Is our villain a stack off monkey that is never folding Ace rag?
Is our villain loose preflop but competent post flop?
Is our villain loose preflop and a spewmonkey bluff tard post flop?
What does our preflop raise do to our villain's range preflop and post flop?
What does villain's post flop bet say about his hand?
What does our action (call or raise) do to our villain's range and how villain continues on the next streets?

To me, a lot of advice in this thread seems like one-size-fits-all advice without taking the above questions into account.

Shoving flop here when we have $360 behind is just spewy. What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying to fold out AxQs or AxJs type hands? Are we trying to fold out sets?

When we shove for $360 we ensure that we only get called by hands that beat us.

Also, before we shove for $360 we need to know if we can get better hands to fold and truthfully the answer is going to be no way too often.

It is counter intuitive but this is a spot where we really want to try to pot control and get correct odds to draw but barring that, if V is not giving us correct odds to draw then we need to be folding.

The reason for the above is because we just don't have the fold equity when we shove and too often at this level villains will call is with pretty much 100% of their donk betting range.

When V donk bets into us on this board for a pot sized bet, he's just never folding. I expect V to be donking into us here with AxQs, AxJs, or flushes most of the time and these are hands he's never folding.

I hate having KK vs stack off monkeys and an Ace hits the board. A part of us wants to spazz out and try to rep AK and fold out the stack off monkey but it rarely works. In this ccase, its counter intuitive but this is not a spot where we want to shove over the top of a pot sized donk bet. As horrible as it sounds, correct play here is to call drawing to one street and hope V makes a mistake on turn and gives us correct odds to draw on turn or we bink a spade on turn. Barring that, if we whiff on turn and V jams us then we have fold.

Sometimes, a passive line is best. I know in general you want to be aggressive but a small % of the time a passive line is more optimal and this is one of those times. We have enough implied odds to draw to one street, so we draw to one street and hope to bink, otherwise we call flop and check/fold turn if we don't get the right price to draw to another street..

Yeah^^^^ I like this one.:D
 
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kanselau

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The fact that V shows up here with 6s3s shows that we have very little real read on his range or competency

When we are in these spots we have to be capable of thinking through how our villain would play the hand.

Is our villain a stack off monkey that is never folding Ace rag?
Is our villain loose preflop but competent post flop?
Is our villain loose preflop and a spewmonkey bluff tard post flop?
What does our preflop raise do to our villain's range preflop and post flop?
What does villain's post flop bet say about his hand?
What does our action (call or raise) do to our villain's range and how villain continues on the next streets?

To me, a lot of advice in this thread seems like one-size-fits-all advice without taking the above questions into account.

Shoving flop here when we have $360 behind is just spewy. What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying to fold out AxQs or AxJs type hands? Are we trying to fold out sets?

When we shove for $360 we ensure that we only get called by hands that beat us.

Also, before we shove for $360 we need to know if we can get better hands to fold and truthfully the answer is going to be no way too often.

It is counter intuitive but this is a spot where we really want to try to pot control and get correct odds to draw but barring that, if V is not giving us correct odds to draw then we need to be folding.

The reason for the above is because we just don't have the fold equity when we shove and too often at this level villains will call is with pretty much 100% of their donk betting range.

When V donk bets into us on this board for a pot sized bet, he's just never folding. I expect V to be donking into us here with AxQs, AxJs, or flushes most of the time and these are hands he's never folding.

I hate having KK vs stack off monkeys and an Ace hits the board. A part of us wants to spazz out and try to rep AK and fold out the stack off monkey but it rarely works. In this ccase, its counter intuitive but this is not a spot where we want to shove over the top of a pot sized donk bet. As horrible as it sounds, correct play here is to call drawing to one street and hope V makes a mistake on turn and gives us correct odds to draw on turn or we bink a spade on turn. Barring that, if we whiff on turn and V jams us then we have fold.

Sometimes, a passive line is best. I know in general you want to be aggressive but a small % of the time a passive line is more optimal and this is one of those times. We have enough implied odds to draw to one street, so we draw to one street and hope to bink, otherwise we call flop and check/fold turn if we don't get the right price to draw to another street..

yep , calling flop isn't bad after all coz of implied odds.
 
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